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[00:00:25] Stuart Paap: All right. Welcome to another episode I am so excited to talk to. I'm gonna call you a friend Gil. His name is Gil Rief and he is a 13 time Emmy award-winning writer and producer, and he wrote for it, uh, Ellen DeGeneres. For Jennifer Hudson, you know, I usually have a 10 Emmy minimum. Gil, so you knocked that out of the park.
[00:00:48] I just want you to know, um, he has written for top hosts and celebrities creating comedy segments for Grammy winning artists. Uh, he has. Very smart guy. Degrees from uc, [00:01:00] Berkeley, and also a master's in business administration from San Diego State University. And now he's leading workshops on unlocking creativity using the power of comedy to boost joy and resilience.
[00:01:12] And I really wanna dive into this whole creativity thing because innovation, creativity, they go hand in hand and it is what every company needs. Gil. To really unlock growth and potential new product services and innovation. So, um, I wanna start there. I think you were saying you were just at your alma mater leading a workshop on creativity and, uh, maybe you could tell us what you, the topic was and how that went.
[00:01:41] Gil Rief: Oh yes. Well, first of all, stoop, thanks for having me on on your podcast. And, uh, it was a lot of fun. So I went to San Diego State, uh, where I did an MBA program and I've been very curious to test sort of this writer's room model of creativity I've been thinking about for many years. And I've [00:02:00] noticed there's just so much synergy.
[00:02:01] I. In a writer's room, there's so much bursts. Uh, there's the ability to generate, I think, way more ideas in a very compressed period of time because of these very hard deadlines. There's, uh, you know, and it is a kind of a high stakes environment. You're trying to come up with stuff that's gonna be seen potentially by millions of people, and you sometimes only have one hour to come up with it.
[00:02:21] So, um, I kind of created this three step process that I wanted to share with people in other industries and see if the application was there. And regardless of whether you could be in finance and tech, uh, there were people in the class 'cause it was executive MBA pro, uh, class. So there were people from military, there were people in construction.
[00:02:42] So I was very excited. I went through the presentation with them and then I broke 'em into these little mini writers room groups and had 'em generate ideas. And then, and then part of the model is then how do you evaluate the best ideas based on the context? So I had them go through that process [00:03:00] and what, what I did, just to make it a little more targeted, I said, you know, it'd be fun.
[00:03:04] How about this is the size of your playground. Like, because, because creativity loves constraint. You can't, if I were to say to you, give me three ideas about anything in the world now, you would be overwhelmed with possibility. But if it's like, come up with this, uh, three ideas for a game. Involving trivia and animals, you could, you could hone in and latch onto that.
[00:03:23] So the, the parameters were. An app targeting college students, and it could involve, so something social, something involving fitness, home delivery, budget. But I gave 'em this sort of playground, almost like mind mapping. And then I, I created an environment where it's very low stakes, where it's like, we're just gonna, there's no, you know, there's no bad idea here.
[00:03:45] We're just gonna build upon ideas and let's see how many you can generate. And then we're gonna have time to, you know, I call it writing drunk, then editing sober. And then lastly, acting caffeinated. How do you spring into an action plan? So it was really fun to [00:04:00] go through the exercise with them and get their insights on how they could apply it.
[00:04:05] Stuart Paap: Well, so there's a lot to unpack here, and I wanna, actually, what you said reminded me of a quote, this sort of writer's room, and I wanna unpack that. There's a quote by Leonard Bernstein, I think. To achieve great things, you need to have, uh, a, a plan and not quite enough time. I don't know if that's the direct quote, but there's something about that that forces creativity.
[00:04:26] But first, let's just explain to the audience what is a writer's room. And of course you've been in and run writers' rooms and these, um, very popular television shows and for, for artists. But essentially, what is a writer's room and what is the function of a writer's room?
[00:04:44] Gil Rief: I think, uh, a lot of it is to deal with the immediacy, the need to, uh, ideate really quickly and sometimes, uh, that there's the individual component where we have individual assignments.
[00:04:58] So in the context of the Ellen [00:05:00] Show, you might be assigned a monologue individually, and so you'll take a first draft yourself. But once there's feedback and then there's a, a rehearsal and then a show in one hour, any, anybody will dive in when there's notes, because it's a team, you know, it's a, it's a very team oriented thing, even though there's a lot of delegating and sometimes it'll be two person teams working on a segment or three person teams and other times, Hey, we need.
[00:05:27] All eight of us, all 10 of us, because let's say like Walmart wants a game and they need to, we need 10 ideas by noon, then it's sometimes fastest if we all just get into a room together and just pitch ideas and then the head writer can filter 'em down and say, these are the best eight. Bring 'em to the executive producer and say, these are the best three.
[00:05:48] And then take it to Walmart and they can say, we like this game, or we wanna do this tape piece, or whatever the comedy segment is. Right. So there's, there's a real need for execution fast.
[00:05:58] Stuart Paap: Yeah. So what [00:06:00] I'm noticing here is something that I also tried to do with my clients, which is use the power of the room, whether it's a team of 10 people use the power to quickly get the.
[00:06:11] Ideas out and to test each other's thinking and then distill down and then prioritize, and then action as you said. So that process seems pretty universal and it's in, it's in high need because what I've noticed is happening, Gil, is when you get into most professional settings. There's a lot of premium on people doing things on their own.
[00:06:32] You know, you go home this weekend and work on this thing alone or you know, you burn the midnight oil and work on this report, and I think there's always a time to do that, but. I'm hearing with this writer's room concept that you're talking about, if you get out of the comedy or entertainment world, it's really about collaborating.
[00:06:50] It's about sharing ideas. Mm-hmm. It's about supporting each other, uh, prioritizing ideas, uh, and then of course maybe putting them into action. [00:07:00] Um, did I get that right?
[00:07:01] Gil Rief: Uh, yes, yes, a hundred percent. I, and I think this is my observation, um, is people rush. So I see it as a three phase thing where, you know, the idea phase requires a different type of creativity.
[00:07:14] It, it's thinking really wide. It's the ability there, there's an openness to it, and it can start on the individual side where you come at, you know, whatever the problem is you're trying to solve or whatever you're trying to generate. I I, I always think you need to look at it as a playground 'cause it's, it's a playful state of mind.
[00:07:33] And I think what happens is people rush that phase because they can't execute till they sign off on an idea. So they feel it's like a, kinda like a bottleneck and they rush it. But I always think you should use the full amount of that deadline. Because rarely is the first idea, the best idea, the most quick, impulsive idea.
[00:07:52] It, you're, you haven't thought deep or looked at it from a totally different angle or brought in other elements that might create some [00:08:00] novelty to, to innovate. So I think what happens when you have a writer's room is there's a way. A low stakes way to test ideas really quickly because the iteration of, Hey, what about this?
[00:08:12] Sometimes like the half faked idea that would get shot down or people would withhold because they're scared to share. It ends up being the gem. So I think it's super critical to share.
[00:08:22] Stuart Paap: So there's something there that I think is exactly what is the challenge in a lot of professional settings because, uh, a lot of people I work with are extremely bright, they're high achievers, and by the time you get your place on a very high performing team, the last thing you wanna do is be seen as somebody who's offering substandard.
[00:08:42] Ideas. However, however, the creative process dictates that we get those ideas on the table. And I've done this experiment with people, I've called it the bad idea game, where I say the purpose of the game is to generate volume, like the amount of [00:09:00] ideas. So you actually have to spit out as many as you can in a short time.
[00:09:05] And only then do you get to assess. Actually, I, I first invert it and say, find the worst ones, the ones that make you laugh, and that's where the absurdity comes. But of course, what happens is the good ideas sneak through because you've lowered the stakes and you've allowed your brain to do what it does.
[00:09:23] Mm-hmm. Naturally, which is solve problems.
[00:09:26] Gil Rief: Yes. Uh, you know, kind of a good metaphor, I think for this, I, I, I love racket sports. I love to rally. I think so much of it's about flow state, getting into the right, playful state of mind, and there's different types of competition when you go, if you go and, and, and if in your mind you're thinking, I just want to outshine all these people, that's the goal.
[00:09:46] Then you're gonna be very strategic of what you share, and you miss the, the organization misses out on the potential value of the bursts of ideas and the ability to cross pollinize these ideas and, and [00:10:00] lead into something amazing. So if everyone's like siloing, you know, and, and just very, very cautiously just.
[00:10:08] Being caring more about optics as soon as you're, you're self-monitoring, which is really what I consider the edit sober stage, which is now it's time to judge and there's a place for that. Once you have volume, like what you're doing, I agree with, because generating volume is valuable 'cause you've put that through a filter and now you've got a range of options and you can really identify.
[00:10:30] The best potential idea, but until you've explored, you have no idea. If you're staying within a narrow bandwidth, you don't know. What kind of innovation you left on the table. So I think that when you're, uh, in a state where you're cooperating rather than competing with the, the competition in your case, you know, and, and I agree with that exercise to generate volume is a competition, but it's a cooperative competition versus individual competition.
[00:10:58] My idea is gonna be better than your [00:11:00] idea. How about the group idea is gonna, is gonna elevate because we're all pitching in.
[00:11:06] Stuart Paap: It is funny. There's a book that I refer to written by, um, Adam Galinsky and I think, um, Maurice Schweitzer, and it's called Friend or Foe. Now Adam is a professor at Columbia, um, in the business school, but it, the subtitle is When to Cooperate, when to Compete, and How to Succeed at Both.
[00:11:28] And I think there's something that is unspoken, which is this kind of, you know. The work environments can be competitive, right? Yes, sure. People wanna be promoted, recognized. It's, we're a very individualistic society in some ways, but also you can't do it alone if you're solving hard problems, whether it's in medicine, uh, whether it's in energy, whether it's in.
[00:11:53] Education. You know, it takes a sustained effort over a long time so that you need that collaborative [00:12:00] energy. What I like about your approach, and I think is, is a premium that's needed is lowering stakes, treating each other as collaborative partners, and then letting the meritocracy the best ideas, winning really be the guide and not just a personality that can sell.
[00:12:20] An idea that maybe doesn't deserve to be the best idea. I,
[00:12:24] Gil Rief: I, yeah, I totally agree with that. I, I think there's kind of a, a bubble up theory of ideas where good ideas can come from anywhere within, you know, any aspect of the organization. Um, it doesn't have to be this hierarchical thing where only, you know, in the context of say, a, a talk show like the Ellen Show or any talk show, it doesn't just have to come from the writers.
[00:12:45] If, you know, there was a time when I was a production assistant. I was submitting jokes and they were getting used and they recognized, okay, there's value from this kid, or, I wasn't a kid. I had an MBA, but I was still, you know, it's easy to dismiss somebody who [00:13:00] you don't think is at that same level or status, and I think that's a big mistake because ultimately you say we're an individualistic society, but it's also meant to be a meritocracy.
[00:13:11] Because ultimately it's about the quality of what you're trying to create as opposed to this personality of who gets credit. So that's a real tension between, you know, people seeking credit and then what's really best for the organization, which is innovation, collaboration.
[00:13:28] Stuart Paap: So I'd like you to indulge me for a second, having LED and run writers' rooms, just for people who've never experienced this, walk me through a typical day.
[00:13:36] Let's just call it any production day where it's sort of, from the time you show up till the time you're out, I'll cap you at five minutes here, but I. I think it'd be interesting to understand the process through that lens. And then of course, we can think about how that would, would apply to other settings, whether it's in different industries.
[00:13:53] But walk, walk us through this sort of a day in the life of running a writer's room, uh, just so we can [00:14:00] see and be a, a kind of a. Fly on the wall or, or peering through the window?
[00:14:05] Gil Rief: Uh, yes. So I can say like within the context of when I was as a head writer, the last two seasons, it's a, a different kind of role than as a staff writer.
[00:14:17] 'cause you have to also oversee, um, you're assigning other writers, uh, different segments of the show and, and you are. You're, you're a filter for everything they write, so you, uh, but, but because we were pretty lean writing staff, uh, as a head writer, I al we also assigned ourselves things. So a typical day come in, it's eight 40 in the morning, and I'd pop into the other head writer's office and we're slammed with, with, with stuff we got.
[00:14:46] We have a 10:00 AM deadline, uh, to basically write a, a monologue that day. So we've usually generally thought about. A topic, but sometimes something topical occurs and we're like, we should, this is what we, or this is what Ellen would wanna talk about. [00:15:00] So,
[00:15:00] Stuart Paap: and just, just to pause you there, can you just give a, the lay of the land of a monologue, how many minutes, how many jokes, what's the general structure of it?
[00:15:08] And then we'll go back to this.
[00:15:09] Gil Rief: Sure. Yes. So. A typical monologue, and there were various kinds, but one that would be more of like a, a talking kind of monologue versus like game, uh, something that had other elements would be like a mini standup routine essentially. So, um, it could be anywhere from I. Three minutes to five minutes.
[00:15:29] But it was basically, you know, Ellen would come out, greet the audience and launch into this monologue. So there'd be some topic, uh, it could have been Super Bowl commercials, it could be anything. And, and you also have to really think about the visual elements. 'cause television is such a visual medium, so you have to deal with graphics.
[00:15:46] Uh, you're, you're. Very much creatively, uh, like the blueprint of the whole opening of the show and various other segments. Sometimes we take over an entire talk show would be seven x, so the [00:16:00] first act would be maybe 12 minutes to 15 minutes. Then commercial break. Then Ellen would come back with the first guest.
[00:16:06] So maybe have Sophia Vera on for a couple segments, but then every now and then there'd be an open act and they'd say, Hey, can you come up with a game? Or, uh, can you guys write. A funny hitting camera segment. 'cause Sophia Vergara wants to wear an earpiece and go to Starbucks. So there's a lot of creative needs that you're trying to juggle.
[00:16:24] And so as a head writer you are, you have to look at the entire week, uh, and as much lead time as possible because when there's production elements, you have to. You know, there there'd be these producers who were, uh, kind of the liaison, uh, in our department to then go to props and say, for this game, we really need, we want to play giant beer pong from up high and we need, you know, giant balls and this and that, and we, we need this type of wardrobe for this bit.
[00:16:52] So there was a lot of, um, a lot of moving parts. You move very fast, so. In a typical day, you [00:17:00] get in, you try to have a little chitchat and loosen up, but the day just kind of can hit you in the face in the morning. 'cause all of a sudden it's like, okay, Ellen's there. At 11, we have to have everything printed ready to show the monologue.
[00:17:11] 'cause we would go through together the entire, the. Opening act of the show, we'd all read it together, get notes, and then we discovered the most efficient way. And this is why I like the writer's room model. It, it often used to be very individual at the show where, where people would, if, if you were assigned a monologue, let's say, and you got notes, you would go off on your own and tackle those notes.
[00:17:34] Initially, but then we switched it to a much more collaborative situation where we all pitched in and that was really valuable. 'cause a, it was faster. I think there was a lot more learning for the other writers. 'cause you're involved with way more segments than you typically would be, but less heavy lifting and lowering the stakes on the individuals because kinda like on a basketball team.
[00:17:56] You don't really care who makes the winning shot as long as somebody does. So [00:18:00] one day it might be you, you have the open shot, you hit nothing but net and another time someone else steps in and has the winning joke you need. 'cause uh, there's quick turnaround times. Yeah. So a typical day, you're really rushed up until the show.
[00:18:14] And then you get a, a breath of fresh air later in the afternoon where I'd go play ping pong, go for a walk, go to Starbucks, whatever. Um. You, you do need to decompress. But, um, super, that's a kind of a taste of what it's like.
[00:18:29] Stuart Paap: So, and let's talk about just the structure of a joke for people. You know, I, I've done comedy.
[00:18:35] You've done comedy. Um, there's a structure to it, right? There's a. Premise or the idea that you're trying to talk about, there's the specificity. So you could say, you know, whatever it is, like, uh, traffic drives me nuts. Uh, specifically I was trying to get into work today. And then you could get into the increasing sort of levels of scenes, right?
[00:18:54] Mm-hmm. This guy cuts me off. And then of course you've gotta, uh, the element of surprise, right? Like, [00:19:00] what's happening here, right? Honking at this guy. And then I realized, you know, it's, it's, it's my dad and so I got angrier. Right? So there's a surprise. So you kind of, there's a structure to it, but most people don't, don't know that structure.
[00:19:13] I had to be sort of taught that structure. And you see it a lot. Is there, in a five minute monologue or three minute monologue, is there a structure to like, we're gonna do a series of four jokes and it's gonna build an intensity? Or how did you think about structuring that? Monologue when it was more topical or based on something that was happening in the news?
[00:19:34] Gil Rief: Uh, I mean, I think that all good story or whatever is, you know, you want to build towards something, so I. Often, you know, you need a good opening. You know, you come out and it, the opening might not even be about specifically the, the topic of the monologue. Sometimes it's about the audience. It could just be, um, just a, a quick line or observation.
[00:19:56] But, but, um, there was always a comedic premise, like [00:20:00] you'd see something in the news. Um. You're always looking for an angle, you know, like a lot of, I would say like Ellen's style of comedy and where it resonated with me is very observational style. So I'm always, I see comedy, there's comedy everywhere.
[00:20:14] You know, as you know, you go out in your day, you go grocery shop or something your kids do. And so a lot of it was just capturing observational comedy. 'cause we had a lot of freedom. It wasn't a very. A topical hard news show. Often we would, we might take something in the news, like it could seem political, but we, that we would zig and zag and now we're talking about a reality like Dancing with the Stars or whatever it is.
[00:20:40] So for example, like I would make, I would make an observation the other day I was watching the NBC nightly news. Or listening to it. And I hear that opening like, dun, dun, dun dun dun dun. And, and that made me realize, of course the news is gonna be depressing because just that theme song, it's so dramatic and right, of course.
[00:20:58] Like it's gonna be about [00:21:00] war or it's not gonna be about a baby duck. Who can salsa dance? You need, you know, it's gotta have a different theme song for that. So you might make, think of an observation. And pitch that and like, oh yeah, we could totally build around that. And, and then there's other funny theme songs we could, we could bring in and talk about the effective music on, you know.
[00:21:19] So I think there was a thread to every monologue I. And whenever we can do topical references that would resonate with that particular audience. Like the, the typical viewer of the Ellen Show was a 40-year-old mom, so I became very good. And at the time, you know, I, my wife was a 40-year-old mom, so it, it was easy to test that type of comedy out because I knew the demo, but it's so much knowing your audience, what they will relate to, and figuring out a thread.
[00:21:49] That kind of can build so you, you can have a nice button at the end, some closer. 'cause it's like George Costanza and Seinfeld. You want to go out on a high note, so [00:22:00] you wanna kind of hook 'em in at the beginning. Whenever I do standup, I always try to put the new stuff in the middle because you don't want the stuff at the beginning or the end to bob you as long as you start strong.
[00:22:10] End strong. You can kinda, you know, fail a few times in the middle.
[00:22:15] Stuart Paap: Right? Yeah. Woody Allen used to talk about putting his material, the new stuff in between when a joke worked and another joke would work. That's where you try out the new stuff. So, but there's some lessons here too. So we've been talking a lot about like show business and a very specific show and all of that.
[00:22:32] What I think are some universal. Truths that can be applied are number one, I think it helps to frame the problem. So you talked about the game. If you said think of anything, you kind of go crazy. But when you scope it down and say, let's put this on the table and let's leave this out of the table, I think that's critical that you.
[00:22:53] Understand, to use your word, the playground that you're playing in. Mm-hmm. So if you're trying to innovate a new idea for a, [00:23:00] you know, a device at your company that could help people be more productive around a certain task, now you've got the framework to say, this is really what we're talking about. And the intended outcome, uh, is one thing.
[00:23:12] Uh, the second thing I'm getting is that having a time limit. Is really beneficial, and I see this all the time that, um, I, I, I challenge clients to try to do as much as they can in five minutes and. Pretty universally, people are actually quite surprised when they focus on something intensely for a short time.
[00:23:31] They can be unbelievably productive. I think that the default mechanism is people get distracted and and go multiple ways. So that's the second component. Having a time. So framing, having a time. The third thing I'm hearing is this concept that we haven't vocalized yet, but I think it's gotta be there, which is this idea of yes.
[00:23:50] And or building on. And I want to talk about that because in the writer's room, uh, you know, which is like has a premium on producing creative [00:24:00] work. Sometimes people don't know that that's the expectation in their domain, right? They just know they're in a meeting. But no one ever says the purpose here is to produce.
[00:24:09] Good work and yes. And is one of those simple tools that people teach and it's from improvisational comedy. It's, it's to build on things so that you're having good rapport, you're letting things flow, and to use your racketball, it's like I hit the ball to you, you hit it back, and all of a sudden there's a game and now it's bigger than just the two of us.
[00:24:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:31] Stuart Paap: Is yes. And something that you need to, uh. Coach or teach people to do. Is it so obvious in the writer's room and then beyond the writer's room, have you seen that people need to be introduced to this concept to kind of get their head around the beauty of Yes. And as collaboration isn't just ex um, a nice to have, it's a need to have.
[00:24:53] Gil Rief: Uh, yes, and I, yeah, I, I agree. I I set that one up. [00:25:00] I agree. Switch. Um, yeah, I, I, I do think it probably takes, it, it might be counterintuitive to people the way, the process that they're used to it, it takes a lot of non-attachment to your own ideas and, and to be willing to really listen to what other people pitch and.
[00:25:22] And just in flow state just naturally react to it in a supportive way? I think it's, it's more about the, the, the, the atmosphere to, to when it's a cooperative. When I watched, for example, yesterday when I, we did the workshop and I observed the students, they were, I could see they weren't as attached to their ideas.
[00:25:41] They were having fun. 'cause everyone. Was doing it. You know, I think that as long as everyone in the room is, has bought into this, that we're all like, I'm sure in improv it doesn't work if you have a team. I, I was watching the show, I don't know if you've watched a show Hacks. Um, but, but, [00:26:00] uh, there was a scene where, um.
[00:26:03] I'm trying to remember, uh, the name, the actress, uh, Jean Smart, she has to do improv. She's, she goes to visit, uh, uc, Berkeley, actually. And, um, she ends up joining some improv group and she's never done improv and she's not really buying into the exercises. Like they're, they want do all these warmup exercise, and she's like, no, no, I don't do that kind of thing.
[00:26:23] And, uh, I think it does take that buy-in where if everyone is in it together, it works. You, you, it doesn't. Work when there's people who feel aren't comfortable with the collaboration. So, but I think once it gets going, everybody, everyone is sharing ideas and, uh, it can be cultivated. I think it does have to be learned by, by 'cause it's not something typical in most businesses.
[00:26:50] I think, um, it seems like at odds with, um, a lot of the way the culture would be, I.
[00:26:57] Stuart Paap: Right, but there's something to it that [00:27:00] produces unexpected. And wonderful results, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that what is the premium here and why people need to, you know, do more of, of you know, these workshops and what, what you're doing is there's untapped potential that's hiding in people's subconscious or their minds that isn't coming out because they're fearful or no one's asking them.
[00:27:24] Mm-hmm. Or they fear being judged or some combination thereof. So to really create the conditions that, hey. You know, you're in this company, not just for you, but for the potential that you have. I think you need these tools that you're, you're bringing to give people the language and the words to say yes and, and to know that they're building towards something.
[00:27:45] Plus it's a lot of fun. When's the last time you, you go to a, a work environment and ha just have a total blast that also has. Unexpected results. Team building, uh, rapport building friendships and, and the like. And you know, laughter [00:28:00] is the shortest distance between people said Victor Borga and I think of that often, you know?
[00:28:05] Mm-hmm. Laughter is, is a way that you, you're both saying, we, we like each other without even saying we like each other.
[00:28:12] Gil Rief: Oh yeah. I mean, I fully agree. I think a lot of it too is about cross collaboration. So it's not only within, what I'm hearing from a lot of people is they, they're, they're siloed and they're not interacting and collaborating with various departments.
[00:28:27] And so in the context of a, of a television show, you're forced to do that because there's no way to produce a show unless we talk to the wardrobe department, props, graphics, talk to the line, producer, handles, budget, all kinds of. And, and everybody brings something to the table. They all have unique skill sets that you don't have.
[00:28:46] They have ideas for how you might execute it. You don't know what's possible till you, till you talk to them. I, I spoke with someone yesterday at the, at the course at SDSU who was in the military and he was describing their brainstorming [00:29:00] sessions and, and, and you realize like it doesn't matter what the organization is there, there's a need to generate a lot of ideas at first, and you're not.
[00:29:09] Gonna tap into, there's all the untapped potential that until people feel comfortable, that psychological safety to, to share ideas and bounce ideas and rally basically, that you're not gonna fully explore the playground. You're only hanging out on the swings when there's a seesaw and there's like a trampoline and there's all this amazing equipment you're not even tapping into.
[00:29:33] So I, I think there's huge value in that. Bursting us of ideas.
[00:29:39] Stuart Paap: Yeah. So I want to talk about, uh, storytelling. You know, storytelling is ubiquitous. It's, it's how people share ideas. Um, there's a million ways to to go about it, but essentially, I always think of storytelling as. You know, in acts right, there's three acts.
[00:29:56] There's always something you want to do, whether it's in a company, we wanna bring [00:30:00] new innovation, there's something in the way we don't know how, we don't know, where we don't know who or whatever. And then there's a resolution. It could be a proposal, so we suggest we innovate or we should try this, or let's, let's build this in the lab.
[00:30:13] So I kind of think of the three act structure. I'm curious what your perspective is on storytelling, because. I think when a lot of people hear it, it it's, it feels simple, yet overwhelming. It feels like, okay, this is the most obvious thing as we talk about our weekends, or our kids or our lives. But at the same time, if you ask people to create it in a business setting or in a non creative setting, people get a little bit overwhelmed with how to whittle down.
[00:30:40] Complex ideas. How do you think about storytelling in terms of structure? How do you build stories when you're telling stories, whether they're comedic stories or just having a narrative arc? And how have you used that in your career? Uh, with writing and, and running rooms,
[00:30:55] Gil Rief: uh, you know, I. It's so much embedded in our DNAA love of story.
[00:30:59] You know, [00:31:00] like as 10,000 years ago, we were just sitting around campfires and people were just telling stories and it's so much of how people process information. 'cause if you get too conceptual, it doesn't resonate until you paint a picture and tell a story. So I think. I think a lot of it, a lot of, um, good storytelling is, is so much about also like what's not there.
[00:31:21] It's like, like good writing. So much is in the edit and knowing how to, 'cause I think an issue with storytelling, if you watch the pilot to a sitcom, let's say whatever the greatest sitcom ever, they're often not that great because they haven't honed in on who the characters really are. And there's so much exposition because.
[00:31:42] You can't understand a story unless you give a certain amount of context. You gotta know the characters understand their problem. And so I think people get bogged down in too many details with stories. So I try to think of story much like with standup, it's an iterative [00:32:00] process. 'cause you tell a story and you, it's almost like workshopping it.
[00:32:03] You see what resonates with people. And what doesn't. And when you read that, you say, you know what? I don't think I need to give that much information at the top of the story. I could launch. Right? Sometimes a good scene in a movie is about getting in late and getting out early. When, when I, when I write screenplays or things like that, the, sometimes the biggest issue is it's too dense and it's such, it's, it's very much like having the precision.
[00:32:28] And it's almost like a haiku where you don't need as much there. So a lot of it is rhythm and pacing, and I think what a lot of people get wrong with story, and maybe I'm being too long-winded in this explanation, but I think they're too long-winded. So it's very much about pacing and building and tapping into real universal human emotions.
[00:32:49] Stuart Paap: Yeah. And I, I, I agree. I think you win in editing, you just need to cut down, uh, the story to its essence. And there's a famous, uh, Ernest [00:33:00] Hemingway story, that's the six word story. 'cause Hemingway would write these tombs, right? Or, or tomes, I should say. Not tombs, uh, in a tomb. But, but he wrote, yeah, but he wrote, uh, a six word story and it is for sale.
[00:33:15] Baby shoes never worn. And that was the challenge that he accepted. And it, you know, six words and you create this three dimensional movie in your mind. And so I tell people that if you're good at getting to the essence of that story, their supercomputer mind will create so many details around it. It's like seeing live.
[00:33:37] You know, virtual reality being created where they can create cities like inception, right? Where the whole city just happens magically in a nanosecond. Um, and I think that what you're talking about getting to the crux, like getting into the, where the heat of the action is. I almost think of it as like, let's go right to the edge of the cliff where the hero is hanging with their fingernails and they're about to fall.
[00:33:59] That [00:34:00] can be a, a metaphor for anything you can say. Like if we do not figure a way to innovate. Over the next two quarters, this business will be out of business. Right? That's like, oh, okay. Thus, here are the conditions that we need to create. And then I propose like, that's a simple three sentence story that can really be the blueprint for a one hour presentation.
[00:34:23] Gil Rief: Sure. And, and also, you know, there's a, there's a linear way to look at story, but if you started with somebody on the edge of a cliff. And then you back up. How did we get here? You know, it's also often about a hook. So, um, it, they're a lot of the best movies. They're not quite linear. They, they, because like we talked about earlier, uh, it's about surprise.
[00:34:45] You know, if you can telegraph, if you watch something and you're like, all right, I know that that's the, that's the murderer. It's obvious. It's, you're not gonna be as compelled, but if they keep you guessing, they keep you on your toes. Uh, and that works in drama as well as comedy. And I think that has [00:35:00] business application because you want people compelled, you want, if you're trying to get a message across, you want them to be on the edge of their seat and go, well, what then what?
[00:35:08] What happened next?
[00:35:10] Stuart Paap: Well, and I always tell my clients that if you have an hour for a meeting, no one pays attention in a linear fashion for an hour. No one's sitting there going. Give me your data, right? They're bored, distracted, overwhelmed, tired, just like everyone is. So if you can cut right to the essence, the reason we're here is this, and this is what's changed, right?
[00:35:30] This is what's different. That those are cues to the mind to pay attention here, and we're here to do this. If you can give people focused attention, this is what we're focusing on, people, that's a gift because now they can. Put their brain to work on what it does naturally, which is solve problems.
[00:35:48] Gil Rief: Yes.
[00:35:48] And, and if you can frame that comedically at all, just here's the problem, but some little joke that we, everybody can relate to about that, to [00:36:00] diffuse even the, the stress of the situation, you know, just to show we're all in it together. And I, I think. That has huge power to get a group to feel their team and Right.
[00:36:14] You know? Yeah.
[00:36:15] Stuart Paap: Well, you're also talking about something that. If you can make everyone feel like they're on the same boat, going down the rapids together, and I think that these workshops do, then, then people are fighting the same battle as, as you said. So I'm just echoing what you're saying. I also, I'm recalling a, a friend of mine who worked at a.
[00:36:36] A company that has since been acquired by a big, um, a massive consulting company. But what they did was they did these change management workshops where they basically get people in a room and they wanted this group to change the way they did things, but they didn't tell them. They said, here are the conditions that are happening in this world.
[00:36:57] How would you go about solving them? [00:37:00] And when you involve people in the solution, they're much more likely to own and, and adhere to the the decided upon action plan versus, Hey Gil, this is what you're gonna do. 'cause your natural instinct is big. You don't. And tell me what to do. Yeah. I'm Gil Rife. I, I do my own thing, so.
[00:37:20] All right. Well, I, there, there's so, so many ways I could go here, but I want to kind of bring this to a landing. I'm curious, just because you've, you've been in these, uh, rooms. We looked at the writer's room. What's it like to win? I. An Emmy award. I mean, you won 13 of 'em. So at this point, your hand is calloused from holding those Emmys.
[00:37:38] But what's it like, or maybe the first one, you know, how did that feel, uh, to get not only nominated, but to win, you know? Um, yeah, tell me.
[00:37:50] Gil Rief: Uh, it was very exciting. Every time was exciting because it was just a bonus. I actually, the, the first time I won an Emmy, I didn't even know. [00:38:00] It was possible. I, I, I had no idea we were nominated.
[00:38:03] I didn't know anything. All of a sudden, I, I mean, I, when we got the nomination, I was just shocked because, and also because at Ellen I was a producer as well as a writer, so I was eligible for two, one for writing and one I. As a producer of the show. So the first year I was there, I suddenly won two and I was, I never expected to win any, let alone two.
[00:38:26] So I was very, yeah, just euphoric to win any Emmy 'cause it was just a bonus to me. I just wanted to write jokes and anything else was gravy. Yeah. But then it just became kind of a running joke with my friends and I actually lost one of my Emmy's in a bed at my brother's bachelor party. Uh. And, and, uh, I have, I, I have maybe, I
[00:38:49] Stuart Paap: dunno if I wanna know that story, but anyway, go on Gil.
[00:38:52] Gil Rief: The funniest thing though is usually we'd come back in from a weekend and we didn't have time to ask about our weekends, [00:39:00] but that day there was a little technical glitch with the, with the television. So then. Ellen was asking about stories, Hey, what, how, what did people do this weekend? And someone said, Gil lost an Emmy.
[00:39:10] And then I'd explain that. Try explaining that to your boss is how you lost an but that's great. But the best part is my brother's friend has it on his resume as Emmy winner, and he's in the medical industry, but it, he does get asked about it. Every time he interviews for something
[00:39:25] Stuart Paap: That's so funny. Well, it, it just sticks in your head because you hear the word about 1 million times, but you rarely meet somebody who's actually won one.
[00:39:33] You've just heard Emmy, Emmy, Emmy. Um, and so that, that, that's cool. Um, I. I was hoping you could indulge me in one thing that I haven't really paid attention to in, in 15 years, which is the actual structure, like the analysis or the anatomy of a joke, because I think a lot of people, I. When I was a kid watching comedy, it felt like a magic trick.
[00:39:58] I couldn't believe that [00:40:00] someone could say something and then vocalize something, and then you would enga, you would evoke laughter. It just, it felt magic. And of course, you and I know that anyone who's funny, it seems like they're just doing something that's beyond. The page, like, what is happening here?
[00:40:17] How did they have this ability? But I was hoping without, you know, I don't want you to dissect it, that's the best way to kill it. But can you explain to those who have never written. Comedy, how you actually go about it, and of course how the creative process will support that.
[00:40:34] Gil Rief: Uh, so, you know, when I was doing my MBA program, I actually did my thesis on, um, on humor in the workplace and to, because it was an academic paper, I was sort of forced to do.
[00:40:45] A much deeper dive on comedy and there aren't different types, but there, but like, there's some, I, I kind of frame a lot of comedy as like ludicrous juxtaposition is the best way [00:41:00] I could say. It's like two things that you don't expect to go together. You know, there's a lot of time, uh, what it is. It's almost like seeing the world through a different lens, like.
[00:41:08] Often it's like, like almost like where a, a fun house mirror where you, there's things are distorted, there's a universal truth, but you step it out, you exaggerate it to make that point. But, but there's a lot of, it's so much about, uh, misleading, you know, it, it's this joyful and, and what's so beautiful about it, you know, when I was a kid.
[00:41:28] Uh, similar to you, I would watch these like comedians and I was probably seven or eight and just like watching magic, like for me that was real magic because it's like creating this involuntary reaction of just euphoria. And, and when I was able to make family laugh or friends laugh and then strangers laugh, it's like.
[00:41:47] This beau this incredible alchemy of stuff. You're like, wow, how do you put these words together and get that reaction? So there is, there's art and science to it. I, I think that there is, um, it doesn't always [00:42:00] have to have, there's, there's a surreal type of comedy, like, uh, where it's just like more out there.
[00:42:06] But then there's also just pure truth where people recognize and, and. It's kind of like the, uh, the court jester who's willing to say stuff to the king. There. There's a lot of joy in, uh, being able to point out all the hypocrisy, all the somebody wants, uh, said, like comedy is all the, all the stuff that scrapes off when you put the, I'm trying to get this right, but the round peg of.
[00:42:35] Through the square hole of like logic. Like there's, there's, there's so much. It's a very intellectual, I think art form, you know, more so than most. And there's something about observation and reality, but distortion at the same time. But that resonates 'cause people see it in their own lives. So I think it all starts with observation and then it's [00:43:00] a skill to craft it.
[00:43:01] How do you then deliver it? What's the delivery mechanism where. 200 people in a nightclub are all gonna be on the same page and laugh,
[00:43:08] Stuart Paap: right? Well, it says something true about us, but in a way that doesn't feel like an assault or an attack. Right? Because when the comedian is saying, this is what I struggle with, I.
[00:43:19] We're all saying, me too, but that's not for me to say. You say that. So we really do respond to that, and I think there's something about that and you can get away with a lot if you say it in a way that that's humorous. Not to make fun of anyone, I never would do that. But to make fun of the awkwardness or the uncomfortableness of the situation, if you can use humor to diffuse that, it gives you permission to go a bit deeper.
[00:43:44] The second thing I think, and this is something I think anyone can use, it's it's a comedic. Principle, but it's not necessarily funny that comedy is predicated on surprise, is that if you, if you set someone up and say, you know, um, we're going down this [00:44:00] road, we're going down this road, we're going down this road, we were never on a road.
[00:44:04] That element of surprise is, is, is, is, is funny for me. Right. Or for, for an audience. Right. So they'll, they'll hear it's the old joke, you know, take my wife. Please. Right. So it's like you thought they were setting you up with, you know, consider my wife. And then of course they were saying, you know, to take or to remove.
[00:44:23] And so that element of surprise, which is, you know, an old vaudeville joke. But what I think people can do is I. They can share things that are surprising to them in any story that said, you know, you could be a scientist and say, you know, I've looked at all the data and all the numbers, uh, are as expected except for one, everyone will lean into that and go, I.
[00:44:49] Ooh, there's an element of surprise here. So I think you can take this concept and apply it in ways that you share insights.
[00:44:57] Gil Rief: Absolutely. Well, there, there's, there's one [00:45:00] slide in the presentation I did yesterday, um, yep. Is a good example of surprise because, uh, I use statistics in this one. So I say like, did you know that?
[00:45:09] And I have a. I reveal it with the slide too, but did you know that companies who foster creativity have employees who are 17% more productive, 78% happier, and 99000000000% better at making up statistics?
[00:45:25] Stuart Paap: Yeah. Right. So.
[00:45:27] Gil Rief: So, so, I mean, so much the, like, that's kinda like the comedy rule of three, right? Where, um, you, you set up an expectation and you violate that expectation, you know, so that elicits a response.
[00:45:40] So I think, you know, like a comedian will often be able to telegraph these jokes, you know, just like anybody in their craft can spot tech. If you are a martial artist, you can spot all the techniques. Um, and for some people, like, it just feels like more magic. 'cause like, I don't know that. But that's kind of an anatomy of, uh, of [00:46:00] surprise where you set up an expectation and you violate it, uh, in a good way, you know, and it's delightful way.
[00:46:07] Stuart Paap: Absolutely. Alright, so to bring this all home, I think one of the things we've talked about and that you're doing in your workshops is helping people. You know, kind of use this writer's room or this creative template where they can get together, scope out a problem, set the timer, you know, collaborate, come up with ideas, and then, and then come up with their best ideas.
[00:46:29] That creativity blueprint that you've got, I. And you know, I think that this is something that is in dire need in in many different companies. Whether it's coming up with ideas for new products and services or new ways to work together. Um, or just, you know, to come up with more ideas. And I. I think everyone could benefit from, from something like this because they need somebody to guide them through that process, make them feel safe in that and really take action on that.
[00:46:57] Um, so Gil, is there anything we [00:47:00] didn't discuss or I didn't ask you that I should have or you wished I had or you wanted to bring up before we bring this podcast interview to a close?
[00:47:09] Gil Rief: No. Uh, I really enjoyed our conversation. Uh, I mean, I could just. Keep yapping for hours and hours. So it's good. You cut me off.
[00:47:17] Just like, just like setting timers with generating ideas. You gotta do 'em for podcast as well. 'cause I enjoy these conversations and, uh, no, I feel we covered, covered everything.
[00:47:29] Stuart Paap: Yeah. That's great. So, uh, where can my audience go to find you and your work and to keep up with everything you're doing?
[00:47:38] Gil Rief: So, uh, the best.
[00:47:39] If you just go to my website. Gil rif.com, G-I-L-R-I-E f.com. Um, you can connect with, with me there if you wanna reach out to me. Um, you can do so through the website and, uh, and one other project I'll mention 'cause uh, uh, I'm, I'm excited about this one, but I'm developed. I. With a friend, [00:48:00] this animated Kids project.
[00:48:02] Um, and we released a music video on YouTube. So, um, if you have kids who are in preschool, uh, please check it out. If you were to type in giddy the goose, G-I-D-D-Y, the goose, you could see this, um, pilot we we're doing for a a, a kids show. This is a music video, so, um, please check it out if you're, if you have kids.
[00:48:24] Stuart Paap: I will indeed. Well, I want to thank Gil Rif for being on our show and for sharing wisdom about this creative process and all the stories. And, uh, here's to your 14th and 15th Emmy. I might just lose
[00:48:38] Gil Rief: more of them in bets, but we'll see.
[00:48:40] Stuart Paap: Well look, you've, you've got enough to have a buffer. Um, all right, Gil.
[00:48:45] Thanks again and, uh, we'll see you on the next one.
[00:48:47] Gil Rief: Thank you so much too.
[00:48:48] Outro:
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