[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Stand up to Stand out, the podcast where we help you master clarity, confidence and influence.
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[00:00:23] Speaker A: So let's dive in.
I am delighted to welcome a friend of mine and just she'll be a hero to you all by the end of this. So is a hero to me and I look up to you. Liz Brown. So she's a professor of law and taxation at Bentley University. I'm going to read this to get it right. Liz she has a very distinguished legal and academic career, has a BA Magna cum laude from Harvard, a JD Cum laude from Harvard Law School, a recognized leader in corporate law, known for her expertise in emerging tech, data privacy and ethical conflict resolution.
She is a tenured faculty and I believe, head of the department. Is that correct?
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Liz I am not the head of the department. I'm not the chair of the department, but I am a full professor, which means they double can't fire me unless I do something very, very wrong.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: All right, well, and has a really interesting career because in the first part of her career, you know, representing Fortune 100 companies for many years before becoming a professor. So let's get into it. Liz Brown, I want to start in the beginning. So obviously I know you're extremely driven and have high standards for yourself. Where did this start? Do you feel that that was just who you were? Was this a part of the environment in which you were raised? Where does your drive and commitment to high standards come from?
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Liz I think it's a genetic abnormality. I think I was born with it because no one ever said to me, you have to do this, you have to do that. And I don't think of myself as competitive. And that's been sort of a theme of my professional life, is people telling me that I come across as assertive, or different words for assertive that are sometimes used for professional women.
And yet I don't feel comfortable competing head to head with people. But I do love learning and I do love achieving things, especially when I can achieve things without fighting with somebody, sort of like face to face. Do you know what I mean? So I think that came from just from growing up with parents who loved learning. Also. Neither of my parents was especially prominent professionally. I grew up in a very working class home in Malden, Massachusetts, and yet I spent all my free time in the library and when I was in school, I just. I liked learning for the sake of learning, and that's something I still really enjoy.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: So it sounds to me like you weren't always comfortable with conflict or asserting your position, but you also spent many years in litigation, so tie those together for me. Was this just a natural offshoot of coming out of law school, or how did that come into existence?
[00:03:27] Speaker B: It's a great question. I didn't realize before I went to law school how competitive law school itself was going to be and then how combative litigation was going to be, because when you study law as an abstract concept or you study law in law school, you're talking about cases. And you succeed in law school by having better arguments, better theories, figuring out why one side won rather than the other through studying what's already been done. And that's a very different set of skills and a very different personal experience from being in court and, and actually arguing against the other side.
And at first, when I became a lawyer and I became a litigator, arguing against the other side in court was. Was novel and exciting. But what I really felt like I was doing was persuading a judge on behalf of my client that I had the stronger arguments that. That logically, you know, mine was the better choice. And as time went on it in my litigation career, and I realized that more and more what I was doing was not arguing to a judge, but fighting with the other side. I felt two things. First, I felt like this wasn't a good personal fit for me because I really don't enjoy fighting with people. You'd think I would have seen that earlier about litigation, but what can I tell you? And the other thing was that I really liked collaborating and I liked building things, and I liked coming to joint conclusions with people and figuring out how can we solve this problem together.
And that kind of collaborative problem solving is not a good fit with the litigation system, which is A versus B.
So I would find myself, as I became a more senior lawyer, talking to the other side and thinking, look, we have some common ground. I'm sure we can work this out. But that didn't square well with the paradigm of this law firm has hired you to fight. Not to build, but to fight. And that's, I think, when I realized I really shouldn't be in litigation anymore.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: That's really interesting. I'm processing all the themes in there. One is mastering the art of persuasive logic, being the more articulate argument maker, to realizing that it's not a fair fight Right. That you're actually probably being hired to engage in battle, unless to make that persuasive argument. And that, that didn't sit well with you. And that co, you know, that cohesive problem solving, that was more in your, you know, I don't know, wheelhouse, but, you know, you're, that was more appealing to you. So. And that, that sort of emerged over time, I guess.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I really wanted to do, as simplistic as it sounds, I really wanted to do good things in the world. I wanted to promote justice. I wanted to advocate for people who didn't have a voice. And as a corporate litigator, it's hard to retain a sense, or at least it was for me, that I was promoting justice in the world, that I was advocating for an underdog. You know, when you're, when your client is a multibillion dollar pharmaceutical company, it's hard to feel like you are achieving justice every day or doing something good with your life. And while, when I was in my 20s, I felt like, okay, if I write a snarky, you know, clever letter to opposing counsel, that's a good use of my skills because, look, I'm so good at being snarky. And then in my 30s, I thought, what am I doing with my time? You know, this is silly.
This isn't. This isn't me. This isn't a good fit for me personally. So self knowledge was detrimental to my future career as a litigator.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: So. But you have this rigorous legal training. What, what do you feel like when you look back on not just law school, but your legal career? What were some of the skills that you felt that you were able to refine or even master that serve you well in your role as a professor?
[00:07:40] Speaker B: I learned how to work hard and efficiently. I learned how to talk effectively with people who don't share my knowledge of the law. And in fact, that's one of the things I like the most about the kind of law I teach, is that I teach law in a business school. So I teach law to future managers and people who are probably not going to go to law school, but are going to use law as a strategic advantage in their career, in their business career. And that's something I started doing with my clients when I was a lawyer, advising people who were in house at very big companies about how the law works, but sort of simplifying it for them. Well, not simplifying it, but translating it into language they could use. And that's something I do for my students as well, but also Learning to write well and learning to make good arguments. Because part of being a scholarly active professor, which I am, is that in addition to teaching, I also write. I write about where I think the law can improve to address emerging technologies. And I learned how to put together a decent written argument when I was training as a lawyer.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: So let's talk about the first one. Breaking down concepts for people like law for people in business or law for people who are.
How do you approach that? Because this is one of the most common themes that I have with, with my clients, which is, you know, we have a very complex therapy or medicine or solution or manufacturing process. How do I explain this to Department X that doesn't have that? And you have this curse of knowledge. So what is your to that or how has that evolved over time?
[00:09:36] Speaker B: I think about the problem that we're trying to face from my client's point of view, just as I think about the scenarios that my students are likely to encounter as managers from my students point of view. And I try to think down the road from the scenario that they're in. So for example, let's say that I'm trying to explain employment discrimination law to somebody. I could go on about the details of Title VII and the Civil Rights act, but they don't really care about that. They want to know what are they allowed to ask people in an interview and why.
And so I try to explain, okay, when you're faced with a situation in which you're either hiring somebody or you're just working with somebody, here are some common scenarios that might come up. And I try to talk through what the right thing to do is without getting too much in the weeds of legalese. I try to use as little Latin as possible and I frame it in the context of, okay, you could do it this way, route A, which leads to this consequence six months down the road or three years down the road. Or you could choose option B which leads to this consequence six months or a year down the road. Because here's how the law is going to kick in in response to whichever option you choose, A or B. So, so that's how I try to frame it is in very concrete terms. I try to speak their language rather than mine and just help them understand how the system behind the, you know, behind the veil of the statutes and the regulations and the case law affects what they do every day. To give them good advice, to give them good advice when they're my clients, but also to give them sort of a strategic advantage, a competitive edge when they're in the business world.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: So seeing it from their point of view, understanding why they need to know this, and giving them just enough to do what they need to do and giving them the implications as it goes.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. I think that my experience with, in house counsel is that a lot of people unfairly, but understandably see the lawyers as the source of. No, the source of.
You can't do that. Well, we've been trying to do this wonderful thing. Now you can't. You can't do that. And just rather than seeing law as a source of. No, As a source of limitation, I hope my students will, just as I hope my clients will see law as a competitive advantage. A way to say, actually, we can do it better this way. Because if you follow the path that you're on right now, if there are legal challenges, you're going to end up facing so many more expenses and so many more roadblocks down the line. It's better for you to know now and more simple. Like, when I'm trying to explain to my college students why they should study law, I address the many of them who are in the room, who are athletes, I say, look, you wouldn't play a game without knowing the rules of the game. Law is the rules of the game of business.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: So it's analogies. And you're also helping them minimize future regret.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's risk mitigation, but it's also. It's future regret. It's future expense.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Right, but you've also used some. A term that I hadn't really thought about with law, which is a competitive advantage, which seems obvious now when you say it, but I guess many people wouldn't think about, you know, we have to partner with our legal team not just to be compliant, but also because this give us advantages.
[00:13:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think knowing that as a, as an entity, knowing that as a company is incredibly helpful. But I also think it's useful for individual managers, for individual executives to say, if I understand the basic legal underpinnings of what I'm doing here and what the potential challenges are down the road, I'm going to save my company so much money. We are going to do things so much better than. Than our competitors from simple things like what do we name this product? You know, okay, well, do you want. What do you understand about trademark law? To how do we sell this product? Okay, what do you understand about antitrust law? Like, you might not even want to hear the words trademark or antitrust, and you don't necessarily have to. But the law will tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing in each part of the process.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Right. Well, I remember years ago, in a different lifetime, I was playing music. And I remember there was a book called Everything youg Wanted to Know about the Music Business, written by an entertainment attorney. And it was just this seminal work that you felt like you were seeing an invisible world of codes that exist that you can either, you know, know about and make smarter choices or not know about and probably pay the penalty. 10x100x.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: That's exactly it. Yes, absolutely.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So you're giving them this, this playbook as a strategic advantage. So I want to pivot back to Liz and your journey here. So you're this corporate attorney and you're living, I believe, in San Francisco. And obviously you have an affinity for writing and you're doing that in the legal world. At what point did that turn into you writing for yourself in this journey that left law and got into a different part of your life?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: I ran smack into the wall first. I did not plan this well, I have to tell you. I had been growing more and more dissatisfied with my legal career as I got more senior. I had the privilege of working with brilliant people, with wonderful people who seemed really happy with their job much of the time. And I was faking it. I was going to work with a terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. And I had no idea how to get out of that because to the outside world, I looked successful. I was at the end, a partner in a law firm I had moved from. I had been practicing law in London, in San Francisco for 10 years, then in Boston. And it did not seem like there was an exit ramp. It just seemed like I had to keep going or other people would think I was a failure. And in my 30s, I worried about things like that. I don't worry about things like that as much anymore, but I did that.
So I kept going until I had my daughter. And when I had my daughter, I took time off for the first time in 13 years, real time off. And I didn't want to go back, so I didn't go back.
And then I felt like I had jumped off a cliff. And this was cleverly in 2008 when.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: There was, I don't remember, possibly the.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Worst possible time to leave a high paying job. My husband lost his job four months later and we had an infant daughter. So I spent some time researching and talking to people and trying to figure out what I should do next. That eventually led to my first Book, which is life after finding work you love with the JD you have, which came out of interviewing dozens and dozens of former lawyers and trying to find patterns in their exit strategies.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah, tell me more.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: And as a result of that, and I did find some great patterns. But while I was writing that book, I started applying the pattern that I found to my own life.
And that's how I came to learn about teaching law outside of law schools.
I started doing that as an adjunct professor when my daughter was tiny. And then I got a full time tenure track job after being an adjunct. And I thank goodness every day that I do that because I love my work now in ways that would have seemed completely, completely impossible to me when I was a lawyer.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: So you said you spoke to many former lawyers and you identified a trend. What were the trends or the patterns that resonated with you?
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Every former lawyer that I talked to had stepped back from their legal career and thought about what skills they loved using, what part they. They thought about what part of law most appealed to them, what aspect of the job was most fun for them. And then they separated that from the context of the legal practice, and they found another career that allowed them to get paid for using that skill in a different context.
So if we think about law as a bundle of, or practicing law as a bundle of skills, it could include persuasion, analysis, writing, counseling, managing.
Everybody that I talked to who had left law and created a vibrant second career used one or more sets of those skills and just found a different context in which to apply them. So, for example, somebody who loved writing went on to be the New York Times Supreme Court correspondent Adam Lipdak. Somebody who liked counseling people with went on to be a rabbi. Somebody else who liked counseling people and working with people went on to be a search executive.
So there was just these patterns where person after person after person that I talked to had stepped back. And they hadn't all gone through this process consciously, but I saw it in every one of them that they found something that they loved about law that drew them to law in the first place.
And then they got rid of all the, all the bad parts. Right. Which for many primarily includes the billable hour. And they found another way to monetize that skill that they'd been developing for however long they'd been practicing law and just use it in a different context.
And that's what I love that.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: I love that. And it takes, obviously you had These events right, 2008, birth of your daughter, but I think that everyone has a talent stack that they Go. This is just what I do. And, you know, I think at heart, I feel like I'm a teacher at heart, because I'm really a student at heart. I just, I. I want to spend the rest of my life learning, but also teaching is a way for me to learn even more because you have to really embrace it. So I feel like that exercise, while it was sort of foisted upon you, I mean, it's. Look at the richness. It's revealed and this phase of your life and career, and it seems like it's very fulfilling. I'm sure it's not perfect, but, you know, I want to dive into that, your. Your career now and get into it.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: It is really fulfilling. And one thing I will say about that talent stack, I couldn't agree with you more. Everybody has a talent stack. What some. The trap some people fall into is continuing to use talents they don't like. So, for example, I've had many students come through my classes at Bentley saying I should go to law school because everybody's always told me that I'm good at arguing. And that's really familiar to me. I've known many people who went to law school for that reason. And so I say to those students, okay, but how do you feel when you're arguing? And some of them like it, and some of them really don't. And so I think it's possible, I think it's common to have talents you don't enjoy using. And it's very important, I think, to set those aside.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think happiness is found when you're playing the infinite game for you. Right. What is that game that you play? Whether you're working or not, it's your. What your brain is doing always, no matter what.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Where you get a sense of, like, time stopping, you know, and you just could be doing it forever because it's just so intrinsically enjoyable to you.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: 100%. And the older I get, the more I'm like, I need to do less of the things that drain me and all the things that fill me with that joy and that sort of infinite game. Absolutely. So I want to talk about, you know, you've been at Bentley for a while, but you've been teaching. So, you know, teaching and law, they seem to have some similarities. And you pulled those out when you were going through this life after law period.
Talk to me about what you love about being in the classroom and being in the lecture hall and being with students. And then let's talk about some of the focus areas for, you know, what you're doing with them in law.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: I am very fortunate in my students at Bentley. I just love them. I have so many bright, interesting young people who I get to meet near the beginning of their college career. And often I get to see them throughout their college career because we run into each other on campus or I've had them in a first year class and then I see them again when they're in upper level electives that I teach or I hear from them after they've left Bentley. Whether they've gone on to law school despite my trying to talk them out of it, or whether they've gone on and done something else, I just love forming those relationships with them. And I have more authentic relationships with younger people than I generally had in law firms. I would say, on average, I think that's because I bring more authenticity to the classroom than I did to my legal career.
And I get the opportunity to advise and mentor and support and learn from a really wide range of people, which is so energizing to me.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Let's get into authenticity because I would love to hear what you think authenticity means. And clearly I don't think it's an on or an off switch we're being authentic or not, but it's probably degrees. But you were saying earlier in our discussion before, I think I hit record, that you didn't feel like you could be your authentic self in law. And now, of course, that's different. So talk to me about how that was earlier in your career and how that shows up now at Bentley, and then what you do to make sure that you're bringing the appropriate level of authenticity that feels true to you.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
When I was practicing law, and starting from when I was in law school, I graduated from law school in the mid-90s and spent the next decade and a half in very large law firms as usually the only woman or one of a few women on my litigation team. So I would have a group of lawyers that I was working with. Most of the senior partners were men. Most of the people around me were men.
The associates that I was working for were sort of jockeying for position and competing for advantage. And I've never liked competing with people closely like that. So I felt like I had to have a little bit of armor and I couldn't talk about what was really going on in my life. I wouldn't want to reveal any weakness because that would lessen the competitive advantage that I had with regard to them. And since I was already feeling uncomfortable in those competitive male Dominated environments.
I didn't want to concede anything, so that was very uncomfortable. So I felt like I couldn't talk about my family, for example, my parents who were on the other side of the country, or the things that I did on the weekend because I might be perceived as weak.
I didn't get married until my late 30s, which was well into my legal career. And I didn't feel like talk about dating because if I broke up with somebody, I'd be seen as weak. And so in that environment, I didn't feel like there was much that I wanted to reveal about myself. It was always put on the suit, put on the attitude fight on behalf of my client. And that was my working day and night, of course.
So I didn't realize that there was an alternative to that. That was what I thought work was, because that was really my first career, that was my major career. And I didn't grow up with parents who had fulfilling professional lives.
So I just thought that was the way it was.
And it was a great joy to me to realize. Toward the end of my legal career, I started opening up more about what was going on with me personally. I think when I was promoted to partner, I felt I started feeling safe enough to do that. Then I got some blowback for that. That's another story. But when I started teaching, I felt like I could be honest. I was starting out as an adjunct professor and then as a junior professor. It was kind of starting over again in a second career in my late 30s and early 40s. And I had a lot to learn. I didn't have to put up the same kind of walls. I thought I had to be just slightly more confident and act slightly more knowledgeable than a bunch of 18 year olds. And that wasn't that hard.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: So. But talk to me about, you know, that early phase of your career, because I do see that with people who want to feel like they fit in, that they're worthy, that they're competent, all the things. And I think that when I look back at who you were, and a lot of people tend to sort of adopt this Persona or act the way they think they're supposed to, and it's inauthentic. If you could go back and give advice to that younger Liz, or even to people who are entering the workforce now, what would you tell them to do with this concept of authenticity?
[00:28:16] Speaker B: I would think of it less as a concept and more as just another form of honesty, another form of knowing yourself. I think all career happiness comes from knowing yourself, which leads to figuring out the career that you want and the position that you want and strategizing in a way that you can feel good about every day. So that sense of flow, that sense of the infinite game that comes from really being true to your own values, your own interests. And I think for a lot of young people especially, that's hard to figure out. What are my values? What are my interests? They're still thinking about it and that's good, right? They should be thinking about it, but they shouldn't be suppressing it.
So I think it's okay to keep figuring out what you want and what you think and who you are always, but not to be hiding that or suppressing it or sitting too long in a position that is contrary to your values.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: So more allowing instead of pushing away or avoiding.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Sort of thinking about how you're rooted, you know, how what you're, what matters to you, what skills you, what, what you bring to the table, both in terms of, you know, what you think, but also what you see and how you view the world, that's incredibly valuable. Everything that can be manufactured, everything that you can fake, somebody else can buy that. But what you genuinely give to the workplace is irreplaceable.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's something that I can feel. I can feel the sense of fulfillment that you have in your role. It just is apparent to me. And you know, I haven't spoken to you in many years and it doesn't matter. I can just. It's emanating from your Persona that this is a place you want to be.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: Thank you for that. I really, that's, that's a huge compliment to me and I think that helps me be good at my job. So it's got this sort of self reinforcing effect. My students know because I tell them that I love being their teacher, I love being in class. I, it's my favorite thing.
I feel so lucky to be able to, to go to campus every day and engage with them. And even when I have a bad class, it's a good experience.
So they, they may have other professors who don't feel that way. I hope they don't have too many of those professors, but I think they see that and that and they respond well to that because they enjoy my level of geeky excitement about whatever it is we're going to talk about that day.
[00:31:13] Speaker A: Yeah, well, two things about that quickly. I always tell people that your excitement about something is what they'll feel. So you have to be most excited first. So if you want to be there. We're going to feel it. And I've asked everybody, reflect on your favorite teachers, and it was the one who wanted to be there.
I had a teacher in High School, Mr. Murphy, and he left a job in finance to become a teacher. And he wore corduroy coats and big glasses. And he said to us on the first day, it was like political science course. He said, I like three things. Politics, baseball, and pizza. And we're going to do all of them here for the next year. I was like, what? I'll do anything you want. And it was the most fun. He had us watching the McNeil Lehrer News Hour, and I was like, you know, 16, 17, and watching. I was like, all right, got to watch this. Mr. Murphy told us to do it. So you feel that. And, you know, it's something that, like when I talk to a lot of my clients who are many times incredibly brilliant but feel a bit shy or introvert, I say, look, you actually have a moral responsibility to share your point of view, to vocalize your perspective, because that's the deal. You're playing in a game that requires your input. And we just have to make sure you can articulate that in a way that's true to you.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think one of the things that was hard about that for me in, in law firms, looking back, was that I didn't really feel good about asserting boundaries. I didn't really feel like I had any power to tell people when I felt they were being inappropriate or when they were doing things that I felt was unproductive or just. I just didn't have the conversational skills that. That I developed a few more of in my second career. And so it was hard to be myself because every time I would let down my guard a little bit, someone would hurt me. And I didn't know how to protect myself against that. And I think that that can be challenging, too, in the workplace. So being genuine, being authentic, being eager and happy to be where you are is really important. And sometimes you need to step back and develop the skills that will allow you to stay true to those principles in the face of other people who may not react well to your genuine joy.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: So talk to me about that, because now in one of your many responsibilities, you're also leading teams and working with people and also having to establish those boundaries.
How do you think about that now in the workplace and especially in your role as a leader and, you know, double tenured professor, but also just wanting to create the right environment for success?
[00:34:02] Speaker B: It's something I'm still learning. I can't claim to be an expert on it yet, but I have started practicing more, asserting boundaries and saying when I'm not comfortable with something and apologizing less, trying not to apologize unless I have something genuinely to apologize for, and developing a greater sense of ownership of my own expertise and value in the teams in which I work. And that is not something that I ever learned to do. It's not something I learned in school, in college or in law school. It's not something I learned to do in my first career. It's not something I had to do when I was a faculty member and that was my sole responsibility. But in the last few years, as I've developed more managerial roles, more opportunities to be in higher level conversations, it's a whole new area of skills for me to learn. And so I've had to, I've had the opportunity to sit back and think about how I can have more conversations that are productive for the group I'm working in, but also that feel comfortable to me. And keeping those two dynamics in mind has been really helpful. So instead of just thinking, how am I going to get through this meeting? Thinking, okay, what do we all have in common? What are our goals as a group?
I think I'm going to present something or I have something to contribute, but let me think about how that might come across to other people. So I'm not just going into a meeting saying I've got to make sure I make these points because it's going to look good for me, but instead saying what's the goal of the meeting and how can I contribute to it and being flexible in those conversations. It's something I'm still continuing to learn. I think I'll be learning it for a long time if I'm lucky.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: It's a balancing act. But you're trying to serve the greater good. What's the reason we're here? What are we trying to achieve?
[00:36:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And when I have something to say and I sense that somebody else is not responding well to it because of their, their body language or because of their spoken language, trying to think from their perspective, trying to see from their use what I know about, about that person, about their responsibilities, about what else might be going on, to try to understand how I'm coming across to them.
So it's not a top down delivery of information, but it's a conversation.
And that dynamic actually is something that I've. That has helped me become a better teacher. And many people have become better Teachers, I think over the last 10 to 20 years, by changing the paradigm from we used to think of college teaching as this sort of sage on a stage where you had like a smart person who would just talk down to a bunch of students. And now I think the most successful professors have a more interactive style where you've probably heard the phrase flip the classroom, where there are more activities, there are more discussions, there's less hierarchy, and the students are learning more and feeling more respected as a result. At least that's the goal. And so I find taking that approach in meetings is helpful as well.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: Talk to me about, you know, having high standards for yourself or for, of course, students, but also this element of building trust and feeling safe. Right. So we've heard a lot about psychological safety and, you know, there's a lot of being written about it.
I feel like the dynamic in a classroom when you have high achievers, you know, there's people who want to compete and there's, you know, elbows and sharp elbows, but there's also there needs to be a sense of trust, that we're in good hands here. How do you balance those dynamics?
[00:38:17] Speaker B: I focus on honesty, of being a person of my word, of being genuine as a primary value as a teacher. So when I say I'm going to do something for my students, it's incredibly important that I do it as a matter of showing respect to them, as a way of engendering trust. I want them to know that I am paying attention to them and their interests and their needs and their questions are important to me. So there are lots of ways to do that in a classroom. One is to check in frequently to see if the human beings who are sitting in front of you understand what you're talking about.
Finding ways to make them feel comfortable asking questions so that they get that sense of agency and engagement and knowing that they're a valuable participant. I think creating a shared sense of mutual respect, of honesty, is very important to establishing trust.
I think that's true within the bounds of a classroom. I think that's true among the various levels of the institution. I work in a university.
I think that has to be true everywhere.
I'm about to actually in two weeks, lead a graduate level study course to the two happiest countries in the world, Finland and Denmark. I'm taking a bunch of graduate students on a travel course and one of the things that I've already learned about the governments of Finland and Denmark is that in those countries, citizens have a very, very high level of trust in their Government, which sounds insane, right, Coming from the United States, but they citizens in these Nordic countries know that their government has their best interests at heart and so they're willing to go along with things like higher levels of taxation.
I, I think there's a lot to be said for creating greater levels of trust as a way of working, of having everything work more efficiently.
Whether you're talking about just like something small, like a classroom or something bigger, like an institution or a nation.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fascinating. And you wonder, are these case studies, are they replicable on bigger stages?
What is it? So I'll be curious to hear more about that. So do you think what you're doing now and who you are, could you have gotten here without going through what you did in litigation, in law?
[00:41:10] Speaker B: I ask myself that all the time.
I have no idea. I mean, that's a great question. Is anybody able to answer that? I have no idea.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that who we are is going to eventually, if you give us the conditions of not suppressing that, it will eventually emerge. I feel like that most people are sort of like a caterpillar if you allow the conditions to exist. But not everyone gets there.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: I see what you're saying and I think that's true.
Speaking from the point of view of like looking back over, looking back over a 30 year career, did I need to spend all that time practicing law?
Yes, probably. And look at. I had so many adventures. I mean, I can envision lots of variations of a happy life. I had one of them. I can imagine the possibility of having others. Had I gotten to teaching sooner or had I gone into an entirely different career? I don't think. I think teaching is an amazing career, but I don't believe there's only one right career for everybody.
I'm very fortunate to have the one I have. But could I have had something different? I don't know. I teach with people who, many of my colleagues on the faculty have PhDs.
We have a lot of people who have MBAs. Would I have been interested in and fulfilled getting an MBA instead of a jd? Maybe. I have no idea. But it would have led to a very different set of experiences. Would it have led me to the same place? I don't know. If it had or hadn't, would it have been happier? I don't know. I think all we can do is just make the most of where we're coming from now and every day think right. Am I living the life I want to? Am I on the path that will allow me one day to say, I'm proud of the life I lived. I did something good. I helped people.
I'm very much still working on those questions myself.
[00:43:23] Speaker A: What's the most fulfilling part at the end of a day or week or an academic year for you, when you sort of get some space from your day to day?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: When my students go out of their way to thank me because I helped them see law in a different way, or because they really enjoyed my class, or I inspired them to do something new that is unbelievably rewarding.
Whether it's just a small thank you or I've gotten more substantive thank yous, or I get emails from people who have used my books and have left their less fulfilling legal practice careers to go off and do something else. I love hearing from people who have found that useful. So that is by far the most rewarding part of my. Of my. My week, my month, my year.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: So my final question would be, what do you hope for your students who get to go through your courses, and when you wish them well and you may not see them for many years or possibly ever again, what do you hope for them?
[00:44:42] Speaker B: I hope that they will have a career that they enjoy as much as I enjoy mine.
And I hope that they'll stay in touch with me and let me know how they're doing and let me know how I can help them in the future.
[00:44:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, this commitment to helping others, I think, is who you are and, you know, leveraging all of your skills because you have so many, but in a way that impacts others in a way that they didn't expect. Because I believe that part of the magic of life is the surprises that we didn't know were even there. And when I look back at my life or your life or anyone's life that's fulfilling, I think it's because you just didn't know what you didn't know until the lights went on. And it usually came after the lights were out for a while, you know?
[00:45:35] Speaker B: So true.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: It just happens that way. So my ultimate question is, is there anything I didn't ask you about that I should have or was a missed opportunity or just a blind spot for me?
[00:45:48] Speaker B: That's a great question, Stu. And I cannot think of anything.
You're so good at this. I'm really glad that you've developed this program because it's just another way of you sharing your many gifts as a teacher. And I feel really fortunate to be able to spend this time with you, watching you and participating in this with you. And it's so great. So thank you for doing what you're doing.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Well, thank you. That means a ton to me and this is just a joy and I feel like it's the easiest thing in the world because I just get to talk to people who I love and listen to their journey and learn and it's a joy. So Liz Brown, thank you so much. Or Professor Elizabeth Brown.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Oh please.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Thank you for being a guest on the show. And is there anywhere you'd want to point people to? I know of course you have so many things you do, but you might be happy just in your in your domain. Is there anything you'd like to point people to or to make them aware of?
[00:46:50] Speaker B: If you are an unhappy lawyer and you are looking for guidance, then I would recommend life after law finding work you love with the JD you have.
And you're also always welcome to email me at my Bentley address, which is ebrown onetley Edu. If you want to talk about teaching or you want to talk about career development or you want to talk about anything else, I'm always happy to connect.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Liz Brown, thank you so much for being my guest and talking to me. It's just a joy to see you. So thank you.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: My joy is mine. Thank you.
[00:47:30] Speaker A:
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