[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Stand up to Stand out, the podcast where we help you master clarity, confidence and influence. Join over 10,000 listeners worldwide and unlock the power to turn your goals into reality. This podcast is designed to bring you insights from the industry and some inspiration to get it done.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: At DN8, we believe that better communication leads to better outcomes.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: So let's dive in.
I am so delighted to have Jose Juvez with me, so I'm going to read this so you can hear it clearly. He is head of Corporate and patient affairs at X4 Pharmaceuticals, former senior vice president at Takeda and Wave Life Sciences, extensive leadership experience in corporate and patient affairs. Also earlier in his career, director of Media Relations at the Mass. Port Authority, and a deputy and Assistant Press Secretary at the Governor's Press Office, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, roles in the Governor's Press Office and just so much experience. And I'm just so excited to dive in today. So maybe we could start a little bit back and looking at some of the threads that encouraged you to first get into public office and public affairs. How did that start for you, Jose? Where did that begin?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: So, Stuart, just great to be here and thanks for having me. Super excited for this conversation.
So look, my start was, I think, like a lot of people, was not that intentional. I wish I could tell you I had a deliberate plan. I did not. I graduated from College Lorfolin, Massachusetts in 1993. The economy wasn't great. There were not a lot of jobs. I'd happened to be an intern already in the Governor's press office and, and they said, hey, if you're interested, we've got a job for you after you graduate. I said, I am 100% interested. And then they said, oh, but here's the catch. We can't pay you until September.
So if you're interested, you've got to work for free for a couple months and then we'll start paying you. Which made the, I think the conversation with my parents a little bit less exciting.
But nonetheless, it was just a great, it was a great opportunity. It was a great move.
And in retrospect, I still draw on a lot of the experiences I got early on in my career from working in government.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: So tell me about what are some of your roles and responsibilities back then? I mean, from you're starting out, it's an internship and of course that transition. But what was some of the first things that interested you when you were looking at all the responsibilities from the day to day? What was the stuff that caught you your eye that sort of drove into Your career path now.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: So, Stuart, I think really two things. One, the job itself initially was I was the operations manager of the governor's press office. It's a very operational job.
You know, I think that helped me understand the importance of just execution, actually being able to get things done and to some degree motivate people and kind of influence without authority. You know, 21 years old, I had no authority.
But I think from a, you know, from a bigger point of view, it really interested me. Were journalists so in and out of the office and the people that work there were reporters. And back then reporters were a thing, you know, tv, radio, print media was a big deal. It's how people got informed, obviously. And I just was drawn to and fascinated by these reporters. They were, you know, they were cynical, they were smart, they were fun, and they were frankly dictating what all of us were consuming on a day to day basis. And I knew I didn't want to become a journalist, but I wanted to work in their sphere. I wanted to be part of their ecosystem where if I could contribute or influence what it is they're focused on and what it is that they were writing and talking about, I thought that would be a fun and great way to spend my time and have a job.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: So it seems like, and I reflect on that, shaping the narrative, being cynical, smart, being able to synthesize different agendas but put it together in a way that makes sense to the audience. That seems like one of those things that you were noticing. Is that true?
[00:04:30] Speaker B: That's 100% true.
You know, I was always amazed that the reporters would go and they'd interview, you know, you know, the governor of the state, they would interview other legislators, they would go talk to people related or folks that had an opinion on what was being discussed and they would very quickly synthesize all of this into a story.
And I really got captivated by the, by that process.
I was also really drawn to the fact that they did it quickly. I mean, you know, they really had to turn things around, you know, back then, you know, deadlines for a newspaper. You know, they really had to have things kind of wrapped up by 5, 6pm in most cases to make the next day's, the next day's newspaper.
And on the flip side of the governor's office side, I love the fact that we really had to stay on message and be very, very disciplined about what it is that we were talking about and what it is that we wanted to share and communicate. And we had to do that in a way that was compelling and resonated with people, but also in a way that was simple enough people could digest.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: So you've got these kind of parameters around how do we speak to people in a way they understand, how do we shape that narrative. And it seems like as you transition from public service, I guess, into. Into more private and the biotech sphere, I'm curious at what things came with you. And you know, you went through different roles in the governor's office and of course mass port authority and others. What things came with you into the private sphere and what things maybe stayed behind in the public?
[00:06:12] Speaker B: You know, I definitely think about what I brought with me and I think, you know, the primary one is, is a little bit what I just mentioned. I think it's that staying on message.
I spent a lot of time and have spent a lot of time working with CEOs and obviously a variety of companies. And frankly, I'm still almost amazed sometimes at the ability for senior level executives and companies almost to get distracted by things. And I think when you're working in government and you're working in politics, it is critical to really stay on message. It's critical to repeat that message over and over again and to be quite disciplined about that and not kind of be reacting. Of course you have to be flexible and agile. But I think that on message theme is something I've brought with me. I can tell you that in the governor's press office we would build theme weeks where if we were focusing on welfare reform, I guess this is back in the early 90s, we would hold events all across the state that would be focused just on that. And we would really try to do a surround sound for the citizens of the commonwealth around the issues and the need at that point in time for welfare reform, for example, even at a higher level.
The governor's campaign again back in 1990, was really driven around three topics, crime, welfare and taxes. Obviously there's a whole host of things that we could have spoken about, but those were three that we focused on and ensuring that everything that we did and said were driving kind of those topics was critical. So I think I've been able to definitely bring in that discipline and that focus into the private sector, which has been, I think, very, very beneficial.
On the other hand, one of the things that you have in the more corporate world is frankly, access to more resources, which is great. And I also think that frankly in the private sector you have to be a bit more thoughtful about how you kind of bring in your audience when you're the governor of the Commonwealth, you effectively have a microphone in front of you all of the time.
And one of the things I've learned that I did not necessarily learn in government, but I've learned since is how to draw people in, how to get that microphone.
Because again, when you're working in the public sector, I think you're going to have access to that all of the time.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: So let's talk about that. That's a nuanced point, but extremely important because a lot of people I work with, they want to have, maybe it's a megaphone, maybe it's a platform to be able to make an impact. Because sometimes when you're in a big company, you want to fight for stage time to show some leadership. Small companies stakes are higher, but you're still looking to make an impact. How do you think about that? You know, and I'm just looking at the contrast between, you know, being in public office, whereas that megaphone is sort of built into the role, and being more in the private sphere where, yes, more resources, but maybe more turbulence there to really speak clearly, say something important and make sure that you're not hogging the stage. How can one think about that?
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes, I think about it in really two ways. One is just having something to say that's meaningful and different.
I think that's really, really important. And the only way to measure that is if you actually kind of step outside of yourself and put yourself into the audience's shoes and really look at things from that perspective. So again, I try to spend time when I'm working with executives who are looking for that platform, really digging into what it is that they want to say, is it meaningful, Is it differentiated?
And getting them to see it from the potential audience's perspective and try to just be more objective about what it is that they're trying to say. I think related to that is frankly having a vision. Again, something that politicians do quite well, is they paint the picture of a different tomorrow.
And being really clear about that, oftentimes it means having that to achieve your vision requires sequential steps. And I think laying out those steps for an audience I think is really, really critical.
And then thinking about how you divide it and chunk that up so that it's digestible for people. So again, having that vision, having that destination where you want to get to, and then making it frankly into bite sized chunks for an audience, I think is really critical. And I think using those two criteria are also just a good test on whether or not you should be actually in front of A microphone or a megaphone or on a stage.
But again, those are two measures that I think I was able to bring from politics into the private sector that I apply still today.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So having something to say, making sure that you know what's in it for the audience. And you said something there at the end that I'm picking up on, like almost. If you don't meet those criteria, if you don't understand what they want or have something to say, maybe don't say anything. Yeah.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: I think, honestly, Stuart, just to jump in there, I think sometimes people underappreciate that point. Right. Sometimes it's okay to be silent. So that's okay not to say anything for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you may be hurting your brand, you may be hurting your business inadvertently by just going out and saying something.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: So. And I want to continue on a little bit there because I remember reading a study not too long ago about, you know, different types of leadership styles, and it broke it down into over communicating, communicating appropriately and under communicating.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: And.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: And the evidence seemed to point that you could not over communicate. It was just always err towards the side of over communicating. With the idea being that, you know, people forget, people are busy, people are overwhelmed, people are stressed out. And I'm thinking about that. In your role currently or previous roles, how do you think about that ratio between communicating the appropriate amount and over or under communicating?
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah, so I would agree generally with that study, I think, but the devil's in the details, right? And it really depends on what you're communicating. So over communicating your consistent message, I think is fine. I think over communicating a kind of disparate, diverse set of messages across a whole bunch of different topics or themes, I think could be a detriment. And frankly, I think we've all experienced this where individuals or even companies that are out there too much, if they're all over the place, people just want to tune them out. They don't know what they stand for. They're kind of like always talking.
I think the other measure to think about is ideally, any communication is trying to achieve something. You want people to actually believe something, you want them to understand something, but at the end of the day, you actually want them to do something. Might change some behavior, change some perceptions.
So again, if you're communicating the same thing over and over again and you're not moving the needle on, you know, either business metric or some of those perceptions or some of those beliefs, again, I think it's time, you know, there's no Downside to them kind of going silent and reassessing on what it is you're communicating, why is it not working?
So again, I think another way to think about it and the third way is really the phenotype of the leader.
What have they done in the past?
And do you need to bring someone from over communication back down to appropriate level of communication or vice versa? Do you need to step someone up?
I think three ways. I think about that, which are dig into, I think the results from the study that you just mentioned.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, as you're saying that, one of the things that I'm reflecting on is you were talking about sharing a vision, but also the appropriate steps. So to me, that sort of strategy and tactics or, you know, big picture and sequential logic to get there.
And I think there's. There's probably a ratio to sharing that vision that people say that this is the future I want to live into and I know how to get there. And it seems to me tied in with that execution, knowing what to do, knowing how to do it. You know, is it the leader's responsibility to make sure that if you're sharing a vision that you also are taking responsibility for, are the steps there, is the support system there, do people have the resources to accomplish that?
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Really, really good question.
You know, the. And I'm going to bring it back to something that I.
In one of the ways I think about leadership in general.
So, you know, I'd like to say that leaders don't have to have the right answer, but they have to be a catalyst to get to the right answer.
And by that I mean I think a leader can have a vision, which is that destination, how you get there. I think leaders are often served by frankly having a more inclusive process around that where they directionally may want to know or may know how to get there. But by bringing more people in, I think they're going to get to, frankly, a better set of tactics to achieve that.
I also think they're going to get better execution, I think, because they're going to create a cohort of people that have now been involved in determining how we're going to achieve this vision, and they're bought in. You're going to get 110% effort out of these people. They're going to be believers, they're going to create echo chamber for you, which I think is really important.
So I think that's how I think about that. I think the leader definitely needs to have the vision, but in terms of achieving, in terms of those steps in getting there, I frankly think that's when the leader needs to open it up to others.
Not to bring it to another catchphrase, but I'm a big fan of all of us are smarter than one of us.
And I think sometimes coming up with that vision can be a solitary go up on the mountain by yourself and figure it out. But in terms of achieving that vision, I think people are better served by tapping into other brains.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is you need to make sure that you're including all voices and you also need to let them own the process or the solution.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's it. I think again in my mind that leads to a better solution, but it also then leads to better execution of that solution if the people that help build it are then involved in delivering on those tactics.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: So, all right, let me ask a nuanced question and feel free to plow through this one. But this is so insightful and I just want to get your thoughts on this. So oftentimes I meet people who are in a fast growing company and they'll now get a job where they're now going to manage people or run a team. And one of the things they want to do is assert some sense of leadership, but also signal that everyone's voices are welcome.
And oftentimes, especially in the science realm, you get people who are a little more shy or introverted. I guess my question is how have you seen, or maybe you do this to encourage all voices and not let the leader of the room sway the narrative in important meetings to ensure that you're getting active participation and a better output from that meeting.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: I think in my industry and the biotechnology industry, we see this quite often. And not to classify different categories of people, but you see this typically when you've got a room and you may have people with a science background working in research and development and then you may have more business focused people. So people in the commercial world, where I've been in conference rooms, where the commercial people, because just their phenotype and the background, tend to dominate and be the louder voice.
So I think two things, I think there, I think one is kind of meet people where they are.
So one of the things, for example that I've done is there are some people that are just more comfortable one on one and kind of want to be behind the scenes and you know, you can get their opinion and their input and you do that in a one on one setting and you can set them up in the meeting actually share their opinions, you know, say like hey Stuart, when we met last week and we talked about these data, you know, you were very interested in X or you're concerned about why, you know, can we kind of dig in there a little bit and you know, can you share with the rest of the team what it is that we were talking about?
And I think that's a way, I think to do that.
I think number two is I try to create again in meetings a little bit of a focus because sometimes some of these louder voices may actually be trying to change the agenda or drive to perhaps a different vision or destination that was, you know, was initially intended. And one of the things I found very useful is initially having a set of objectives. What is it that we're trying to, you know, achieve get people to agree and align on that and then come back to that. Because that way it's not about personalities or people or that you're disagreeing with an individual. It's more about, hey look, let's go back to what we said was the intent.
And you use that as kind of the grounding almost the base of what is that we're discussing. And I find that to be a great equalizer because everyone can go back and look at the sheet of paper, everyone can go look at the three bullet points on the slide, whatever it is, and you can agree or disagree on whether or not we're off base or not. I think that's a way to remove it from again, actual individuals or phenotypes.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that it seems like the North Star to say let's reset the table maybe at the half point. I, I like the idea of a sort of a halftime break for meetings. You know, if it's an hour, give people three minutes to just catch their breath, reset their brain. Because sometimes people get tunnel vision. And look at that North Star as you said that, that key agenda. What are we trying to do here? And ensuring all voices are heard and keep prioritizing.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that I guess to it and that actually formalize it. You know, I think I, you know, I think the way I've done it it's been more organic.
But, but I agree, I think you know, having that more again having a more formal check in point where everyone takes a five minute break and it could be really, really valuable and then actually start the, you know, the remainder of the meeting again with the objectives up on a slide again just going to reorient everyone and in thinking about is just kind of building up what you said, I think it also allows people to have some one on one conversations. You might be able to get real time feedback in a way where you know, someone's not kind of sharing in front of everyone else. Which actually I think could be, could be quite useful.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah. When I was speaking with Glenn Carroll at Stanford on this show, he told me about something I hadn't heard about, which is called the nominal group technique. And I said, well, what is that? He said, well, what you do is you circulate a list of agenda items and you have people rank them anonymously in the group or on purpose. And then you, you, you prioritize the ones that were most important with people's suggestions. But the whole point is to share it with people so that no one knows who it's attributed to. So the person who might be a bit quieter and maybe they're better thinker or they just need to collect their thoughts, their points and their solutions are on the page, but no one knows whose they were. And so I thought it was an interesting approach. And there's worksheets online. I was actually put together, I think by the cdc, Jose. So you can find, you can find it online. But it's actually pretty interesting approach and it kind of ties in with this to make sure are we working on the right thing? And I think that's the takeaway for me is are we focused on the right.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: No, I love that. So thank you for sharing that because that is a great technique, I think. And you and I have Both seen probably CEOs, they struggle with this. They know that when they speak their opinion is kind of overrepresented in the minds of everyone else in the room and they struggle with whether or not I should jump in now or not. And I love this idea of having that anonymous prioritization because I think it allows people to speak freely and not be influenced by what they think someone else is thinking.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. The other term I heard, and this was coined by, I think a software engineer, he called it Beware the Hippo. Hippo stands for highest paid person's opinion.
So I actually, I shared that with some clients and they started saying, who's the hippo in there? I said, no, no, no, it's not about making them wrong, it's about making sure that they're speaking in the right sequence to get the right insights out of the room. So, so talk to me about. So you're head of Corporate and patient affairs at X4. I would like for you to explain what I see as A bit of a dynamic relationship in that title. Just the title alone of what you do. Maybe you could speak to what it is that your mission and purpose is at x4 and tie it in with your experience.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah, happy to and excited to, because I love my job.
So on the corporate affairs front, it really is owning strategically and from an execution point of view, all of the communications, all of the internal and external communications, our investor relationship, you know, even I don't sometimes even like to use the word internal communications. I prefer employee engagement and working with the leadership and human resources to ensure that employees are motivated and engaged and focused and understand the mission and purpose of any organization.
You know, that is very. There's the related skills, but it's a very different objective than patient affairs. And really there, what we're trying to do is frankly twofold in the biotechnology industry. So number one is I want to identify opportunities where we as a company, X4 pharmaceuticals and patient advocacy organization, or patient community, or even just broader disease community, have shared interests. Where are the common goals, where's the overlap on the Venn diagram? And then find opportunities to collaborate around that. And typically again, within the biopharmaceutical industry, where that overlap occurs is, for example, around diagnosis. It's in everyone's interest to increase and have better diagnosis of disease earlier.
I think no one's against that particularly.
I think again, that's an example of an area where if companies can come in and work with these patient communities to increase awareness of disease, to increase the tools and the methods and the understanding on how to diagnose diseases, that ends up being a win win for everyone. And I think finding those areas of common interest is critical.
And kind of my patient affairs had. The other area is bringing in the patient voice into our decision making. That as we think about designing clinical trials where we're testing our drugs, as we're thinking about engaging with patient communities, how do we communicate with them? How do we communicate with their physicians? How do we think about the profile of a drug, of a medicine that's going to help them in terms of the route of administration, in terms of the frequency in some cases with severe diseases, what's their risk tolerance for certain patients? I've had patients say to me, jose, I will take a very risky drug because my disease is very severe and the clock is ticking. So again, bringing that voice into the decision making of a company is critical. And I view, I kind of take that personally and I say decision making specifically because I'm not just talking about having a Patient or a caregiver come in and speak to your employees. I think that should definitely be done and I think that creates, that's a driver for employees that motivates them. But I think really thinking critically about how it's influencing decision making.
I worked at an organization once where actually the head of patient affairs had this great idea and we implemented it, that before every key decision around a investigational program, around a potential drug, he would open it up and he would provide just two or three minutes of a summary of a description from patients of what it was like to live with this disease.
So at every key pivotal moment, and this was even before, you know, data would be disclosed, for example, this individual would get up and just provide a patient perspective just to orient everyone, you know, and I think that's a, I think a subtle and effective way to kind of bring in the patient voice into decision making. So the last thing that you heard before you kind of dove into data and had to make some tough calls was what it is like to live with this disease day to day. I think that's, doing things like that I think is critical.
You didn't ask this through, but I also love the fact that I get to work in the complexity of both worlds. I am trying to help drive a business to be successful, but I also am thinking about helping this, you know, various patient communities and in some ways it's almost regardless of whether or not the company is successful. And I don't, I don't shy away from that, that kind of challenge and that dynamic.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: Well, it is a, it's a rich environment in which to live because it's all about trade offs. If, if this, what does that mean for this group? Right? And, and we all experience that, but I feel like it's extremely heightened when it's situations of mortality and disease and wellness.
So how do you, how do you make sure that you fine tune your internal compass? Because you're an incredibly thoughtful person. I know you've got a big heart, but you also have to have a big mind on these issues. You've got to approach it from multiple angles. How do you ensure that your internal compass is tuned accurately for you?
[00:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The question, because I'll tell you what I've, what I've done because you know, I don't, I approach this from, let me tell you, my approach really. I don't trust my big heart or my big mind.
And I think that's useful for when I do feel like this, you know, that I, that, that this trade off decision is going to be super challenging or that either way, you know, it's. It's not going to be good.
So what I try to do is find ways to kind of help others help me decide.
So reaching out to people, both from a business point of view and from a patient community point of view, to help make those decisions. And I can think of a couple of times when, when I've been able to do that, and frankly, the decisions have been better.
So, you know, in some cases, I've been able to ask former colleagues who are physicians. I've been able to reach out to friends of mine in various patient communities and, you know, lay out the situation for them and get their input and feedback. And, you know, I find that helpful in two ways. One, they typically have just great ideas and thoughts, but number two, it pushes and evolves my thinking because it's opening the aperture at a time of stress when typically, you know, I don't think I'm unique in this, but sometimes when you're under stress again, I find the aperture begins to kind of close and focus. So forcing myself to kind of bring in some other voices, I find incredibly helpful.
Back to your comment about the heart. I also found that, you know, find it mildly therapeutic. It actually reduces my stress. It's initially, it's more stress, but, you know, I feel like I'm kind of sharing this decision now with others and maybe it just makes me feel better, but I do honestly think I'm actually arriving at a better decision.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Well, and that's the point, right? You want to arrive at a decision that is virtuous in your own description of it.
It has to have a quality that transcends the moment. It has to feel like something that you can look back on. And the two things that are resonating with me as a common theme is in meetings to add a break, to reset the table. Big decisions add perspect. What I'm seeing is this rhythm between driving towards relentless execution and also stopping and ensuring that you're making the right strategic decisions by bringing in other perspectives. And, and you said it. Aperture. That's the perfect analogy. You know, sometimes the. The aperture narrows when you're in execution mode. If you're going down the Runway, you've got to just focus on, you know, jet engines and, and tight and takeoff and air pressure. But when you're building the plane or designing it, you can sort of. So I think it's about keeping that relationship between those. Those two dynamics. Always and easier said than done.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Yes. No, it is And Stuart, this is something, I mean, I think I've learned on several occasions, but I think you mentioned I did do a stint at the Massachusetts Port Authority. So Massport, which there's a lot of things, primarily runs Boston Logan Airport. And I was there during 911 and I think, as most people know, two of the planes that hit the World Trade center departed from, from Boston Logan Airport and we were under incredible scrutiny on day one, and then even a year, two years later. And one of the things I did not do, particularly the first three, four, five weeks, was reach out to others.
I think the airport community in general felt attacked beyond the whole context of the terrorist attack that had occurred to our country.
And I think we became very insular.
And I carry that with me because I'm incredibly proud of the work that everyone did at Boston Logan Airport. But for me personally that's, that is a little bit of a regret that I carry just professionally that, that I didn't reach out more during that, during that time. And I'll confess I had people reaching out to me, willing to help and I did not take them up on those offers. And, and again, that's, that's the, I think the good thing is I've been able to learn from that, from that lesson.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's the only way we learn. And you know, our ability to connect, Jose, is our superpower. Right. As humans, we do very little well, but one thing we do incredibly effectively is work together, connect with each other. And this ties in with a theme that's of course very close to my heart, which is, you know, the power of communication. Especially when you're driving towards difficult goals, there's challenges, whether it's dealing with attacks and crisis or dealing with, you know, therapeutics that are, you know, controversial, difficult, just hard to understand.
If you look at a playbook for anyone who's working in, I guess it could be any domain, but specific to biotechnology or life sciences, where you've got these long timelines, 10, 15 years, sometimes times, and you've got, you know, a lot of key stakeholders, you've got government agencies and insurance companies and patient advocacy groups. What do you think are the critical skills that people can bring besides their blinding intellect and insights, besides their, you know, scientific insights? What are the key skills that are for, in your opinion, most important to being successful at driving long term goals?
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Yes, I think there are many things I think I can hit on a couple of them. I think one is, and you've already said this, is having that long term view.
I Remember writing press releases on Phase 1 data for products which is very early stage clinical development that are today marketed.
I think about how that journey has occurred and that really informs how I think about now working on projects that are early stage because I know how the movie is going to play out. I think really having that long term view and trying to avoid always going for the quick win because a lot of times those can bite you. I think that's really, really, I think critical as we communicate in the space. Number two is despite, you know, huge, you know, desire to do this and sometimes people just want to satisfy audiences. You cannot over promise. You cannot over promise. It's frankly long term a disservice to your business. I think more important it, you know, providing patient communities with false hope is just atrocious.
So that should just be a non, a non starter. So I think being excited about a technology, being excited about a development in medicine is completely appropriate. I think people need that. But I think we also need to temper that with the reality.
This ties I think into another point which is just being data driven.
Again, these are oftentimes diseases where people are suffering quite a lot. It's easy to get emotional, it's easy to get super excited. But at the end of the day, staying true and tied to the data I think is really, really important. Oftentimes the way I think of data is almost in this dichotomy where I think it's important for data to almost be an anchor. It should be holding you down depending on the data. But also data can be a balloon. It can also kind of lift you up. But let the data do that. Let the data determine whether it's an anchor or a balloon. It shouldn't be what you want.
You know, we shouldn't just be trying to find a balloon, if you will, the lift in the data. We should be able to look at it objectively and determine what it's going to do. And I think again, communicating that faithfully I think is really, really important.
You know, and the last thing I'll say is knowing when to call it quits. You know, I think companies have gotten better about this more recently. But you know, it's important to drive, it's important to keep moving forward. But knowing when to kind of kill a program I think is critically important for a variety of reasons. Again, there's a business component to it in terms of marshaling those resources and perhaps putting them in an area where they're more likely to succeed.
But again, also for the patients, I think continuing A program where patients are going to get excited about it, that may not come to fruition. You know, again, this should not be acceptable.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm hearing, first, staying long term focused.
Second, ensuring that you don't over promise that you really establish trust.
Third, let the data anchor or lift you up. And fourth, knowing when to stop the bleeding, you know, kill a program or stop the investment and just say it's not working and we've got to pivot.
I mean that, that's a playbook right there, Jose. We've got your got. Got that. I love it.
I wanted to ask you about people who have made an impression on you in your career. Whether it's starting out now, anytime, you know, what, what is it? If you reflect on people who have impressed you in small ways, big ways, what are they doing, what are they saying, how are they being that you think is. Is something you've taken from and let it influence your life.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm not going to reveal names, but I'm thinking about two very different people.
One of them impressed me early on in my career and he had an ability to just to really connect with people. You talked about this earlier and I was always shocked. This was a person who could meet someone and within three or four minutes find some common ground. They were talking and then 10 minutes later this individual would be doing a favor for the other and it would just kind of build and they would say touch. And that for me resonated not because I, you know, I wanted to emulate that, but just more because it showed me the power of connection, showed me just the power of people, showed me the power of just communicating in words.
And primarily when I thought about this person over many years and what it is they did, well, it was listening.
It was listening. This person heard people and those people felt heard.
And that almost made them want to volunteer things to him.
It made them want to trust him. It made them want to do things for him.
And he just had a way of authentically listening to people. And it was, you know, it was cool.
It was cool and magical.
Someone else I'm thinking of, and this person is someone with a medical background.
She's super accomplished, incredibly smart, and I've known her for years. And what I really admire and like and try to hold true to is how consistent she has been over decades.
So the beliefs and the core drivers of what she had going on professionally are exactly the same, you know, today as they were 15 years ago.
And I love that. That again, to me, makes me want to trust her makes me want to confide in her.
You know, I feel very comfortable opening up. And just the fact that, you know, she's seen a lot of ups and downs and good stuff and bad stuff, but at her core, she's remained incredibly consistent, you know, and also admitting some of the flaws with that is quite open to. But, you know, I think she, you know, she would prioritize that stability over, you know, kind of constantly evolving and changing.
And again, that's another quality that not just in this individual, but, you know, I admire, you know, in a lot of people.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And these are, they're both very elegant examples, and they're, it's, it, it's not obvious. Right. If you look at someone, I mean, I don't know about you, but when I was, when I was growing up, you know, you see leadership, and it's almost like a meme in your head of a lot of finger pointing and charisma and all that. But, but what I've learned in my life is that oftentimes it's not that it's listening and consistency, it's showing up, it's being kind, reaching out to people.
I mean, these things, they, they feel a little bit light and fluffy, but fundamentally, they do make the difference because they kind of weave the fabric of, of a culture or a company together.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Stuart. I mean, I, I, I agree that, you know, they can be late and fluffy, but we, you know, we have data. We know that people work for people.
[00:44:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: And that the number one driver of getting hired or someone leaving a job is the hiring manager, you know, their boss. Um, and at the end of the day, you can believe in the mission, you can believe in your job. You're excited, but you want to have a good and productive healthy relationship with your supervisor.
You know, I don't look much further than that. I mean, for me, that, that is just great evidence and data that that kind of, those softer skills are just critical.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, it reminds me of the San Antonio spurs coach, Greg Pop.
So I'm not a huge basketball nerd, but Greg Popovich is apparently one of the most beloved coaches. And part of the reason that I've heard is that he has this dichotomy that he, he loves his players. I mean, come over to my house, break bread dinners, let's. He has a wine collection. I guess that's second to none. He just loves it, and he hosts, and he's very hospitable. He's warm. But there's also high standards and I've heard this from Adam Grant, too, out of University of Pennsylvania, that 19 words can change it for people that say, I know you can do this. And we believe in high standards. And so it's that. It's that dichotomy that you trust somebody, that they're looking out for you and you're safe with them. But we're up to big things.
It's going to be hard, and it's going to be sharp, and it's going to hurt sometimes, but we believe in each other.
[00:45:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that completely resonates with me, Stuart. You know, one of the things I've done with teams when I first start out is I've got a slide around expectations, you know, kind of what I expect from them, and I'm super clear on that. And then, you know, like to think those are high standards, but also what they can expect from me and hold me accountable.
And I think creating that, you know, that space for, you know, that. That love, you know, I think is important. And, you know, one of the things I. I tell my teams is if things go well, you're going to get all the credit. I'm going to push you in the front. I'm going to be in the back. I may not even be in the room, but you're going to get all the credit. If things go poorly, I'm going to step up. Because ultimately, regardless of how, why, who, when, what, you know, I'm accountable for this, and I'm going to step up. Now, you may tell me, jose, I don't want you to step up in front of me. I want you to be beside me. That's okay. I leave that up to you. You may want to say, I want you to be just right behind me. That's okay, too. You may want to say, jose, you take this on by yourself.
You know, there's a lot of flavors. But I just want you to know that I'm. If things go poorly and we have to explain or we need to, like, adjust and tweak or completely pivot, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna step up. And then I, you know, then I try to empower that individual, saying, okay, now let's think about what that means. How do you want me to step up if you actually want me to at all?
[00:46:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that. That's a very, you know, profound way of sharing it, that you're letting them shape the narrative of leadership. Whether you want me side by side or in front or supporting you in the back, you Tell me. And that. That's. That's so evolved, Jose. I just. It. You know, I think people are lucky to work with you. And, you know, it reminds me a little bit. I've been reading some military history, and, you know, Alexander the Great used to. To establish credibility with his troops. He would sometimes strip down and show the wounds that he had suffered at the front of the line, saying, I've. I've been here. I'm not yelling from the back. I'm out front.
[00:47:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: And, you know, it's a bit machismo. There's some military hubris to it. But what I think it's signaling is I'm willing to walk with you. I'm not just going to stay back and let you sort of fall on the sword.
[00:47:55] Speaker B: First of all, I love that you brought up Alexander the Great. So that was my first report ever. In fourth grade. Was it? Alexander the Great.
Okay.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Don't ask me anything else about him. But I do remember doing research on Alexander the Great, and then look again. That also, I think, makes a lot of sense. Again, my. In my first role, when I got hired as operations manager in the press office, it helped that I'd been an intern for two years earlier because that office ran on free labor, on unpaid interns. And for me to be able to hire these individuals and motivate them, it helped so much that I was, you know, I could tell them I did this job. I was, you know, six months ago, I was in your shoes.
And for a whole host of reasons that gave me credibility. I think it also showed them that this free unpaid internship was a path to potentially getting a job.
You know, and I think it did. I think it did a lot of things beyond just me being able to do the job. I think. I think a lot of times that that is critical.
[00:49:02] Speaker A: So a few more questions and then I'll let you go here. But if you were giving advice to somebody who's starting out in industry, maybe they're out of college, or it's their first or second job and they want to be making a difference, and what would you tell them to do? Or a few things that you think they could focus on that would help them, you know, get where they want to go, maybe without making too many mistakes.
[00:49:32] Speaker B: Stuart, don't. Don't kill me. Because this is going to sound really simple, but I, you know, one of my philosophies for work is, you know, work hard and be nice to people.
And. And again, maybe it's because I'm. I'M simple, but that's, that has always been my, my philosophy. I, I work in an industry where I'm typically not the smartest person in the room. I'm usually in the bottom 50% so I've had to work harder. I also, you know, as we've talked about, I transitioned. I didn't start off in biopharma from day one. I started off in communications in government and had to transition. And I, you know, I tell everyone the first time I had to write a data press release.
Fortunately the Internet was around and I printed out probably two dozen copies of press releases from different companies and I took them home and over the course of, I hate to admit this, probably two weeks, I digested them. I would underline phrases that I like. I had to look up a bunch of stuff I didn't understand.
I had to work a lot harder to write a three page press release.
The second one was easier and the third one was easier, but it was a lot, a lot of work.
So I think that's the work hard component. And I think be nice to people, you're nice to people, they're going to want to help you.
And frankly, it makes work a lot more fun.
I think there's smiles are for free. Being authentic and asking questions and engaging with people as humans doesn't cost you anything. And I think taking advantage of that I think is critical. So that's the advice. I wish I had something more profound to say.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: It's great. Simple is beautiful. So what. Two more questions. So one, what are you most hopeful for? You're loving your role. X4 is such a great place. And what I mean by hopeful is like pulls you forward to just be as excited as ever and looking towards the next chapter in your life. What really gets you excited about this?
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Look, I think having an impact on patients. You know, at X4 we just had our first product approved by the, by the fda. So we're launching currently in, in the United States. It's super exciting. These are patients that are living with basically compromised immune systems and they're very prone to infections. And ideally we're bringing a therapy that is going to make a difference for them. And you know, and I get excited about that because I've seen it happen. I've worked in so many other therapies where I've seen the impact. You know, I've been fortunate to be in certain diseases like multiple sclerosis, which over 20 years has just been transformed in terms of how those patients are being treated and their quality of life and the quality of life with their family members. So that's just, that's just great. I think number two, the other thing I'm always focused on are the people I work with, my team and being able to help and develop people and being able to see people grow.
I'm one of these people that I stay in touch with a whole lot of people I've worked with over the decades.
And I just get immense satisfaction from seeing how people just develop and grow and where the trajectory takes them. And it's not, you know, in many cases, I've had no impact or influence on them. I just get excited about the fact that I knew someone, you know, back when. And I get to see them grow and blossom. I'm, you know, I still pinch myself that people I started out with, you know, I've got a handful of them are now CEOs of publicly traded companies.
Like that is so cool that it, you know, I knew them when, you know, they, they weren't that.
And here they are leading, leading organizations with enormous amount of responsibility.
So, you know, I think just seeing that, that trajectory for individuals just makes me so excited and happy. And then the last thing is just in general, I never take for granted that I work in the biopharm industry, that I get to work in a collection of companies in a community that is working to improve the lives of people living with often very serious, debilitating and frequently fatal diseases.
I've got friends who work in other industries and they don't have that added element of responsibility and frankly, job satisfaction, I think that, that we have in this industry.
[00:54:28] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, last question. Is there anything I did not ask or a topic I did not mention that you wanted to talk about or share or anything else to get the final word?
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Sure. No, I just, you know, it's been a pleasure. I don't know. The answer is no. I think you've asked a lot. I'm glad we touched on, you know, Alexander the Great.
I want to see if I can dig up my fourth grade report. Now.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: I expect that by 5:00 today.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: But look, I just appreciate this opportunity. Selfishly for me, I often do not hit kind of pause and reflect on a lot of the questions that you've asked. So it's just know that it's also a benefit for me to even have this conversation because it does force me to think, step back and think about a lot of these topics around communication, around leadership, around teamwork, which I think are so important. So I'm deeply appreciative of the opportunity to share, but also for me to kind of further evolve my thinking.
[00:55:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, the pleasure has been mine. I've enjoyed every second of it and I've learned a lot too. Just reflecting on your stories, seeing what's made an impression on you and, and you make an instant impression. I mean, meeting you was, it was just instantly you wanted to get to know this guy and just you're just a very charismatic and natural person and anyone's lucky to work with you. So, Jose Juvez, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been a delight and I look forward to connecting with you before long.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Likewise. Thank you so much.
[00:56:08] Speaker A:
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