Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I never, ever want a client to work with me for six months or for a year and have somebody say to me or say to them, hey, Stuart, so what'd you and Laura achieve together? And have your answer be? Well, we talked about a lot of stuff you need to be able to say. Six months ago I was here experiencing this, and now I can do this, and I've shown that I'm ready, and now I got the promotion.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: I am Stuart Papp, founder of DNA, and welcome to Stand up to Stand Out. The podcast communication has changed my life, and it will absolutely change yours, because breakthrough innovating deserves breakthrough communicating.
Every episode we bring you industry insiders, subject matter experts, and you can learn from my decades of experience to get the most practical and tactical advice that you can put to work. Now, let's dive in to today's show.
I am so delighted to welcome Dr. Sicola. She is a cognitive linguist and executive coach. And I am so thrilled to have you on Stand up to Standout. Welcome to the show, Stuart.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to this.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I cannot wait. So cognitive linguist, I know what those words might be, but maybe you could break this down and how that tied in with your Ph.D. and then, of course, working with clients. So what is a cognitive linguist?
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Well, like many fields, it has. It ranges and touches on a lot of different aspects of life. For me personally, the research, the focus, the angle for coaching is really about looking at how speech is processed in the brain and big picture, what is it that creates the gap between what you think you said and what they think they heard?
And how do we close that gap? Because let's face it, in our minds, everything's crystal clear. And we say what we need to say, and people should just get it and it should make sense to them. They should respond the way we want them to respond, and then we open our mouths and none of that happens. So my job is looking at why and how do we fix that so that we close that gap and actually get the responses that we're looking for and move that needle forward.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Got it. So where did this begin? I know this is part of your degree, but also you've been working with clients and people for many, many years. But where did this begin for you? Where you started to really dig into this and see it in the real world?
[00:02:29] Speaker A: I think the fascination for me, Stuart, began from the time I was really little, probably five or six. My. My one. Not three of my grandparents are Italian, but my one who isn't is from Chile, and she would come and visit for Christmas and over the holidays. And I remember. I don't know, I was probably 5, 6 years old, and I remember her visiting and seeing and hearing her on the telephone and talking to her siblings in Santiago. And I was raised just speaking English in my house. And she had this superpower, and it was like the secret code that she could babble in these sounds and somebody else seemed to know what they. What she was saying, and they could respond back. And I remember feeling left out. And it was like, oh, my gosh. They had this secret code, the secret club. And I can't be part of it. I want to be part of it. I want to have that superpower, which of course, the rest of the world knows in Spanish. But to me, it was the secret code, the superpower. And that just began the fascination, okay, how do I learn this? How do I. What does this mean? How do I say that? And needing to be understood and needing to understand, and that became my driving force for life, is how do I get understood and how do I understand them? And doing that better and better. That's really been the North Star for me ever since.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: It reminds me of my parents, who are both from the Netherlands. And whenever my sister and I were young and we knew we were in trouble, they would go into secret code, they go into Dutch, and we were like, oh, someone done something wrong.
We're doomed. And. And for me, it was. It was absolutely that. It was like this magic world where you see. And then, of course, funnily enough, when people try to communicate across languages, you notice they get very theatrical. They're using hands, they're using volume.
And I do it all the time with anyone I interact with. So it is interesting that you talk about that gap between.
And I've thought about this, and I wonder if you could unpack any of the science between. You know, forming thoughts is already one complicated element. Then translating that into language, then translating that into spoken or written word, then of course, communicating that across to other people, and then it goes into their own values and sense making language and others. And then, of course, processing that into motivation. There's just so many ways that this can go wrong. And thus what makes brilliant sense to you is just not moving the needle for the others. So help us understand what's going on in. In a scientific realm or if that's
[00:05:02] Speaker A: part of this, it's all of it. So part of my work is in neuro linguistic programming. And if you break that down, okay, what is Neuro, it is the. The nervous system, right? How your. How your brain processes what it experiences through the five senses, whether it's text or smell or something that you see visibly or something that hurts you physically, doesn't matter. Your brain is going to take in those sensories and it's going to attempt to do something with them. Linguistic part of it is then, okay, how do you make sense of it? How do you put words to what it is? How. What do you tell yourself it means? How do you make meaning out of that? And then the programming part is about how your brain creates patterns and what kinds of programs it runs. The computer in your brain will then run programs based on what it has encoded to say, well, if I want this result, I should do this. If I don't want this result, I should do that. So it's putting all of those pieces together and it all happens that the vast majority, if you think about that iceberg image or model that we talk about a lot, you're only consciously aware and consciously able to verbalize a little bit. But all of the rest of that is under the surface of it. Just like anybody who codes computers knows that, okay, people know how to use Microsoft Word, how to maybe type in prompts and chatgpt, but nobody knows the code that's behind that. It's all just deep down in there. And that's how our experiences in the brain. My job is to get in there and dig a little bit more and understand the coding behind it.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: I love this. I wonder if you could give us an example and then also how clients apply this.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: The idea for application is to figure out how to make the unconscious conscious. Taking things that you've been doing automatically on autopilot. You don't even know that you do it. And, you know, whenever there's the frustration of, like, why don't they get this? I don't understand. You know, I told them to do this and they did something else. Why don't they get it is because the movie that's in your mind that's playing is not the same movie that everybody else is watching. So you think you did or said something, but they watched something very different. Have you ever had one of those moments, Stuart, where maybe you made a little video for somebody, a little happy birthday video or a little something, you know, okay, say hi to the camera. And it took 15 seconds. And then you watch it immediately afterwards and you're going, okay, that sounded very different in my head, right? What was I doing with my face? And what happened to My hair. And who let me out of the house wearing that.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Yep.
Happens all the time.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Exactly. And so. But you were there.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: You came up with the words. You said it yourself, you know what you meant. And yet you watched that very, very simple thing, and there's 42 details that you identified that. It's like, that's not how that was supposed to come across. You would never have known it if you hadn't seen the video. But the video is what everybody else watches. Everybody except you. You know what you meant. They know what you did. And they're gonna, of course, interpret that through their own filters and their own conditioning and their own, as you mentioned before, values and of stuff. And it's a giant minefield of things to miss. So an example would be things like giving constructive feedback to somebody. All you gotta do is say, okay, this part was good. Here's where we need to do some edits. Here's where we need to improve it or tighten it up, et cetera. So go back, do that. Give it back to me. How many things can go wrong with that? You can have. Maybe you're afraid to be a. You don't want to step on anybody's toes or hurt anybody's feelings. You're a little bit of a people pleaser. You're trying to be really sensitive to certain things. So you're making suggestions, drop shopping hints, et cetera, and they leave and they feel like, all right, so you're happy with it, and you're going, no, I. I wanted you to fix this. They're going, you did? Yeah, I didn't get that out of it. And. And you don't realize that, of course, until they just don't turn something into you that you wanted them to turn in because they didn't get that that was a hint. Or on the far opposite extreme, you think, well, it's not. It's not personal. It's just business. I'm just telling you, here's what needs to be fixed. And they end up crying to somebody else behind the scenes that you were absolutely cruel and that you crushed their souls. And what. And you're going, what? I just. This was 95% accurate. We need 100%.
What's the problem? It's math. Just fix it. But it's not. It's all those other details. So finding that happy medium so that they can hear what you need them to hear in a way that they can hear it while you still get to be you, that's the goal, and that's the elusive Target.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: It's so funny you say that. There's a hundred thoughts going in my mind right now, but yesterday I was with a group, all biopharma, all in a very specific function, very technical. And one of the things I said to them was what you just said, which is you need to say it in a way that they can hear you. Yes, it reminded me of something and I'll go right back into this. So years ago, um, I had a very close family friend who always occurred to me as in a domain, as a family friend, but he was also a physician. And you know, at the time I, I had some medical concerns and I said to him, doctor, so, and so I have some questions about X. And he said, okay. And he said something that changed my life and I've thought about since he said, okay, Stuart.
He said, so now I'm gonna stop being your family friend and I'm gonna put on my physician hat. This was just over the phone and we're gonna step into that role. And it was so helpful for me because that subtle shift, it was like a mode switch.
I knew that I still trusted him and felt safe, but now I could be more in that domain. And I've thought about that with code switching, where I think, yes, and I'll. Here's my question for you. You know, in corporate settings, I think there's a lot of that. Our clients deal with where they're managing their career capital. They don't want to step on the wrong toes. You don't want to be politically at risk. And I don't mean like in the major sphere, I mean like within the culture. Right. At the same time, there is a requirement for a high performing organization to be frank and give feedback and grow.
How do you navigate those two so that you give your clients the tools to toggle between certain roles so that everyone can serve the greater purpose of the organization?
[00:11:34] Speaker A: A lot of it starts with just explicitly setting expectations in the beginning and for that matter asking, you know, depending on the size of your team and what to stake in the timeframe that you've got, et cetera. You can start with something as simple as just saying, you know, moving forward. Let me ask, how do you like to receive feedback?
That's a very open ended question. And of course most people will say, oh, you can just tell me directly. Lies. No, that's, it's not as simple as they make it sound. But the, you know, would you prefer I write something to you before so you have time to think about it before we talk about it, you know, are there things you're more concerned about than others? There's just see how they respond. It's sort of, it'll give you some cues. So I've had, I had one client who was a former major league baseball player and he, when I asked him, how do you like to receive feedback? He thought about it for a second and he said, a baseball bat to the head is usually pretty good, I find.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Okay, okay.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: I laughed, you know, of course, but I said, I'm going to take that one metaphorically.
Nevertheless, what I understood was, okay, coming from the world of professional sports, he's used to people literally screaming in his face. That's how it works. Unfortunately, that doesn't translate here. So I'm not going to do that. However, I do know that I can be really direct with him. And so. But I would still preface occasionally with okay, time for a baseball bat to the head moment. And he'd go, okay, lay it on me. But I would frame it that way, which means I'm going to give you feedback. Now you've told me to give you a baseball bat to the head, which means you want to take it directly. You are now primed and prepared. I'm going to give you some constructive feedback. The framing helps him prepare to receive it as opposed to from others where I may realize, you know what, they are much more concerned with doing a good job for me. And not that anybody else isn't, but they're concerned about pleasing, about making the other person happy. So I know I need to tell them 47 things that I acknowledge first in their effort, in their quality of their product, in their tenacity, in whatever else it is. And, and then I want to make sure that I don't transition with the word but, because when you transition with the but, it negates everything else. And they're sitting there waiting for this shoe to drop. So it's an and. And for that matter, here's the four letter word that makes things better.
And the word is even.
So here's what you did great. You did this. You did this. I appreciate this and I'm impressed with that. Thank you for doing those things.
And what I think can make it even better. So it's an and transition and an even better not what can make it better. Because better improved means there's room for something that's, you know, but there's a problem. Even better means I'm already happy with it and I got a great idea where we can go even further. So even is a Useful word there to help mitigate any anxiety in somebody who's gonna take stuff crazy personal.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: I loved everything about that. But I'm kidding, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
I truly love that. And one of the things that really reminded me of is something I heard, I think coined by Adam Grant, or at least the first time I heard that out of Wharton, was instead of feedback, feed forward, because it's about what you can do next. And so with your model of here's what I love and what would make it even better, it gives someone a Runway into the future that they can control. Whereas if I'm accusing you or evaluating, there's nothing you can do about that. It's already gone. And I feel that that is overlooked people always, and especially with my corporate clients, you see the same. Everyone's like, feedback obsessed. And I think what they're really saying is we're improvement obsessed. But they're languaging it in a weird way that looks more evaluation based instead of future based. Do you. Do you resonate with that?
[00:15:30] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. And the. The question becomes, what is the context? What is the topic? What is the issue that we're addressing? Is this an annual review?
Then? Yes. Okay. We can look at some of. We should look at what was effective and evaluate where we are. And then a good. At least half needs to be. What's our goal? Where are we moving forward? Where do we want to get even better? For what purpose? What's the objective here? What do we. Where do you want to see you grow in your career? How do I support you in that? Well, if you want to get to that point, here's what you need to work on, because that's what's going to be required for success there.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: And that's different from just saying, you know, here's the 47 ways you screwed up.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: I also think what's critical is transparency about what rubric is being used to. To judge. And thus, I think of Atul Gawande, who wrote this book, the Checklist Manifesto.
So he's a. Do you know the book at all?
No, I'll break it down. So he was the head of surgery at Beth Israel, but also he writes for, I think, the New Yorker. And he noticed that as a surgeon, that they were having a lot of complications because his fellow surgeons were not scrubbing in for surgery correctly. And he was thinking, why? It's not a knowledge, it's not a competence, it's not a credential. And they just found that, you know, there's sort of a, a point after medical school where your skills peak. Actually, I think it's like five or six years and then it, it doesn't, it's not that it gets worse, but I think certain things atrophy. Now, of course, your knowledge base and experience of grows.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: And so he thought that was the culprit. So he was so perplexed by this, he reached out to Boeing. Long story short, they implemented at Beth Israel here in Boston a checklist to scrub in. Now you see checklists in aviation, right? It's time based. It has to be triggered to something. It can't be an ongoing checklist forever. But what they noticed after 12 months was that complications went way down.
And so what it was was removing the cognitive load when you're going in to care for a patient and do something very complex, something that's critical. Scrubbing incorrectly was probably not top of mind. So what does this have to do with these conversations?
What I've found is A, transparency is helpful, so if somebody knows the criteria on which they're being judged. But B, even for my clients, if they're giving feed forward or advice, holding a third party, a plane, a piece of paper with clear guidance on what the topic should be, almost gives them a third party permission to dig deeper without saying, this is not coming from me and my body of and my opinion. This is actually something we agree to.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: It is a contract. It is helpful when people can look at it and say, right, okay, it's just a reminder. And most people won't even look at that and consciously go, oh, there's the checklist. Here's somebody who doesn't think, I'm going to remember to do these kinds of. They don't take it personally. It's almost just part of the wallpaper and it gets in subliminally like, right, right, right, check number 1, 2, 3. But those lists are super valuable because when it comes to things like evaluation, whether you're writing an RFP or, or a proposal of some sort, or you're vying for a promotion at work, as you mentioned in the beginning, we have to know what the standards are. I cannot tell you how many clients I have worked with where in the beginning I'll say, well, can you show me your last annual review? Often people, a senior executive will come and bring me in to work with their SVP or their VP on something for succession planning, for example, and something's missing, right? They're really technically qualified. But what's the missing Link, where is the communication, the executive presence, the leadership skills, et cetera. And so a look at what has been written for that person as far as what their development goals are. And so often it is so vague they should work on their leadership skills or work on their communication skills. Well, what is the problem with that? Because maybe they are. Maybe they've read 12 books on it, Adam Grant and this and that you mentioned, but they without being able to specify and to operationalize in a qualitatively or quantitatively measurable way, then I don't know when I've met your standard. So my first conversation with every prospect interested in coaching before we actually engage is to operationalize what success would look like. Because I never ever want a client to work with me for six months or four year and have somebody say to me or say to them, hey Stuart, so what'd you and Laura achieve together? And have your answer be, well, we talked about a lot of stuff. What did that accomplish? No, you need to be able to say, six months ago I was here experiencing this, struggling with this, banging my head against the wall here and now I can do this. I've fixed this problem. I no longer wrestle with this. I'm more confident in that I have a much better relationship with these people and I've more successfully, I've shown that I'm ready and now I got the promotion. That is measurable goals. They don't have to be quantitative in a spreadsheet, but you darn well know when you've achieved them.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so smart. And it really leads me to my next topic, which is executive presence as a concept. You know, I've heard it, I feel like you know, 10,000 times, as I'm sure you have, and I feel like it's one of those things where you could put it out to a million people and ask them to write an open ended response. What is this in 20 words or less?
And I'd be very curious to do that. But in your perspective, what, what do those two words mean together and what is the relevance of those to a person and an organization?
[00:21:10] Speaker A: My definition of it is what I call mastering the three Cs, which is the ability to command the room, connect with the audience and close the deal. So if you break that down to command the room means when you, whether click join, meeting or physically walk into a space, sit down at the table or otherwise, before you even open your mouth, is there something about your pres.
Just the way you hold yourself that exudes a certain confidence that Makes people sit up and take notice. Not in a look at me, look at me kind of way, but just there's. There's an energy that says I'm here to contribute. Number two is to connect with the audience that no matter who you are, no matter what your background, whatever their background is, your objectives, no matter how seemingly competing they are, on some level, can you find a place where you can look at each other and say, on this level, if nothing else, I understand you and you understand me, and we're going to move forward on that together?
And then number three is closing the deal. This does not necessarily imply a direct sales kind of exchange, but it just means, can we form an agreement? Can we move the needle forward? Can we come to a mutual understanding about something? Can we make a decision? I mean, how many times are you in a meeting and you feel like, haven't we Talked about this 4 times already? Why are we still revisiting this topic? Haven't let's move on already?
Well, what's required to move on? How do we make that happen? So. And most of our decisions are. And most of our big projects, et cetera, are not single conversation deals. Even getting a new client, getting a new investor, getting a new something, there's a, it could be six months, could be 18 months before something is done. All these negotiations. But does each one move the needle forward? That's closing the deal.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Right? I love that. That's so elegant, and it makes complete sense. And again, I'm reflecting on my engagement yesterday, where I had my cohort define what they really wanted. And so there was someone who said, this is how I see this project succeeding. And I said, that's great, and that's your vision of it. And I said, you know, just because it's your idea, it's not their job to care. It's your job to make them care. And in breaking this down, what he realized was a, it was going to take a lot more work because he was going to need to win people over to reduce the FR friction. And thus there was a very different playbook from where he entered the day. I need to just articulate the value of this and they'll get it, versus I need to see what's in their way to remove obstacles. And that's what was resonating for me, was commanding, as you said, connecting with each other around what's important. But then closing, to me, it sort of implies how do I get people to really have the ability to move forward, not even just desire. Desire is only part of the engine. You must have the tracks free and clear.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Can we dig into that for a second?
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Let's do it.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Okay, so a big light bulb just went off here. Think about. And I love that your audience is very pharma focused of sorts. So let's go into that. There's. When people are starting most meetings, you see it on your calendar. You gotta go, okay, click join meeting. Or I got to go down the hall and walk into this room. What kind of. More often than not, what thoughts are going through somebody's head?
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah, like, what is this about? How can I contribute? What. Why am I needed? What's the point? There's a lot of that kind of noise.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: And by the fourth or fifth meeting of the day, has that evolved at all?
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Oh, boy. Yeah. Not. It hasn't been going well. Right. So yeah, this is a downward spiral.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Okay. So there's a lot of negativity. Right. For most people, you started with something very positive and loving, which is, how can I contribute? Okay, where we go by at least meeting two or three people are shifting into what do you want from me? How are you going to make my life difficult? Right. The why are we doing yet another meeting? I don't even want to be here. I've got other stuff to do. Right. It's all of these resistance thoughts and. Or bracing for impact or, you know, there's a lot of hesitation, a lot of walls are up. So chemically there's a lot of adrenaline, there's a lot of cortisol that's coursing through your veins at that point. This is your resistance hormones. These are your fight or flight hormones. Well, the.
Literally the way that you speak to someone, the first things out of your mouth, how you show up, what expressions on your face will either increase those resistance hormones or help them reduce and replace with the more receptive hormones. Things like your dopamine or oxytocin or. So can you break the ice in the beginning with, you know, just cracking a little joke, something light hearted, kind of tongue in cheek that's just gonna make them smile or chuckle. You don't have to be funny man. Mr. Comic Relief, but a little something just to break that tension. You can't be angry and laugh at the same time. It is physiologically neurochemically impossible to do both. Okay, let them exhale after that little chuckle. Good. You're shifting. You're making them more open. They're associating that pleasure connection with you, which makes them more welcoming, more open, more curious, more willingness to Hear, okay, what else do you have to say to me? It makes the mental arm folding unfold.
So you do all of these details. You know, I tell clients all the time, you know, working on the delivery, working on these little techniques, whatever. This is not just quote unquote soft skills. This is not icing on the cake or gravy or whatever analogy you want to use about a nice to have rather than a need to have. This will determine whether or not your message lands as intended and whether or not you get the response that you want. It is essential, not a nice to have. Don't even bother putting your content together if you're not going to bother thinking about how to ensure that it lands.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: It's brilliant. You just, you unlocked so much there for me, which is, you know, you're right. So this person yesterday was saying, even when I bring up this idea, they like hit me with a no. And I said, so what you're triggering is this fight or flight. Their, their cup is full, they're stressed, they're so they don't feel safe. And what do you do? And what people do to say no in a diplomatic way is we don't have time, bandwidth, let's kick this down the road. But it's just a smokescreen to say, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm not feeling seen, and I can't quite deliver on that. So taking more on, if my cup is full, don't pour more water in.
And I just love that, you know, it really is technology, right, the communication to get people to build some rapport and trust. That is a technology that unlocks value. And it's hard to see because we naturally speak and connect as humans. We take it for granted, but we've seen it, it does not.
It can make things grind to a halt, you know, or it can be an absolute accelerant and can make things move very quickly. And the only difference is the way people perceive the value of one another and feel, feel seen and connected.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: I did a training a year or two ago in Denmark and I had about 300 management consultants in front of me and it was. And I know the training was going to come up for, for a couple of months. So I decided, you know what, let me just go and try Unduolingo play with Danish just to learn a little bit. Yeah, I have messed around with a lot of different languages. Let's try this one. And of course it doesn't exactly go right into travel language. It doesn't really. Anybody who's played with it, you don't learn a whole lot of really useful stuff. Early on I thought, well, this is a very pan European company that I'm working with, so there are people there from all over Scandinavia, plus, you know, eastern and southern Europe, et cetera. So when I got up on the stage I started and shared a little bit of this because I know management consultants, anybody, typically in, especially in numbers oriented spaces, pharma, tech, whatever as well, you know, when the language person, the speaking person comes up, there's always that concern about, okay, what are you going to make us do? What do you want from me? I don't like talking. My letters are variables to represent numbers that will be filled in later. They're not supposed to make sound. It's not in my comfort zone. So, you know, I shared up there that I had attempted to, you know, a. I recognized that most people in that room were not native English speakers. So to. If I said something that wasn't clear, to feel free to ask me to clarify, etc and to recognize, acknowledge and respect the fact that they're so good at English that they can do their jobs in these global spaces and to listen to me talk, but that I felt like a little bit of respect should go the other way at the very least. So I had put two months into trying to learn Danish. But the problem of course was that really at that point all I could manage to say was girls and boys eat rice or something like that. And so I said that, but in, in Danish and you know, the whole place burst out laughing. And then they actually applauded and I was like, oh, that's a great way to start the applause for just being able to say that one sentence. But it was like, okay, I'm willing to, to not humiliate myself but to humble myself in saying this is as far as I got, guys, sorry. But you know, I tried and at least let them laugh with me as I'm kind of laughing at myself. It broke the ice and then we moved forward from there. So just having that little bit of connection, the little bit of laughter, there's a little dopamine hit, brings down the anxiety level.
They like me for being willing to respect them, make fun of myself, and not in a way that that undermines my authority.
It still maintains it and doesn't say I'm better than you in any way.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: It's brilliant. And it really, actually it accomplishes three things in one. So Daniel Coyle wrote two amazing books, actually many books. He wrote the Talent Code about people who have tremendous talent but the one that I love is the culture code. Why are there these high performing cultures around the world, from IDEO to Pixar to Navy seals, you name it. And he found it was three elements and it's in this sequence. First, psychological safety that you really have to feel safe and seen, but you have high standards. So that that duality that Amy Edmondson has studied at Harvard, two vulnerability, that the leaders are willing to say, and the foremost important words from a Navy SEAL was I messed that up. And then the final one is a shared purpose. Why are we doing this? What I love that you did there, obviously you have clear credentials, you're likable, but by being vulnerable, you open up to say that I'm willing to look less than perfect in front of all of you to learn something. And thus you're signaling to them it's okay to look less than perfect if you're willing to learn something in service of a greater goal. And it really kind of did all three in one. So well done. Really wonderful.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Thank you. It was fun.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Do you want your team to have a seat at the table?
Would you like your team to speak with clarity, confidence and influence? Reach out to us DNA.com for more information.
Actually, before we leave executive presence and go into prismatic voice, which is something I'm really interested in.
If you were to, and you know I don't like tips and tricks, but if you were to say to anyone who's listening to this, a lot of people are next generation leaders, they're getting promotions, former scientists running teams, and they wanted to fine tune their executive presence and just started to think about it. Is there something that you would tell them to think about as like, this is the first thing that you need to get clear on. Or if you look at your framework between commanding, connecting and closing, where would you direct somebody who wants to start getting some mental homework on this topic before they might engage in coaching or reading books? How would you guide them to sort of bring this on board to their belief system?
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Part of it is having the courage to ask for direct input, both from the person who has the power to give you that opportunity so your boss or whoever else is part of hr, et cetera, and from someone who's already in the role and ask the person who's in that role, what do you wish you had known before you got that role? Or what skill do you wish you had worked on that you had strengthened before assuming that space? So to help you prepare and be ready for success upon arrival and demonstrate that you are Ready for it before you keep arguing for it because that's often when I get brought in is when someone has been passed over for a promotion because there's been an identified gap. We can't promote you until you get better at X. And they're going, I didn't know that I needed X.
So it's not then about me coming in to try to help them make up for lost time. It's you saying I want this. Just like you'd budget and plan financially for what you want in the future, you have to plan for this as well. For the skills that you'll need to be viewed as ready proactively. But being able to ask your boss, if I want this kind of opportunity, what am I missing? And ask it directly, not just what will I need there? But what am I missing to be viewed and recognized as ready by the powers that be and to see how direct they are. Now again, you're going to need to navigate that conversation because they might want to be careful not to over promise or be careful to give you feedback in a way that doesn't accidentally sound politically correct or politically incorrect or, you know, who knows what the culture of the organization is like and what somebody may what kind of sensitivity concerns there are.
But to ask them, openly give them permission, create the psychological safety. It may seem like you shouldn't have to do that for your boss. I guarantee you'll get better results if you do. But ask them what you'll need to be viewed by the greater audience as being ready to assume that new role.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: I love that. I love the elegance too that you framed at what do you wish you had known? Because it engages a part of their brain that's reflexive. I think we all, as we go through life, you know, I'm sure you've had these thoughts where you wish you could go back to a younger version of you and say, you know, take this advice. Future youe needs you to do this. And I feel that more and more as the years go by. But I feel like it engages this sort of natural mentorship and it also gives them access to a playbook that they might not even be cognizant of. It could open up something and you can't. I read this once that you really can't ask anybody to be a mentor. It sort of has to occur. I mean you can have formal mentorships, but sometimes that it doesn't work. But by really engaging them to reflect and then pass that on, I feel like that's a just a beautiful Way to frame it. So thank you for that. So let's talk about this. Two beautiful words, prismatic voice. And I, I would love to know more about how you coined that, what that means, and what does that mean for all of us who are looking to be our best selves so that we can lead with our communication.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: The rationale behind it is the. Because of the frustration where people feel like, especially the higher up, you get feeling, well, if you're telling me I need to change how I speak, change how I communicate, is that changing who I am or how I act? I don't. But this is me.
So the notion of I don't want to change who I am is, yes, true. And a mental block, when phrased that way, we have to grow. Just like you're going to need to grow if you're going to take that new job, that higher level promotion. There's going to be different responsibilities. There's going to be a learning curve. You're going to have to engage with people you're not used to engaging with and translate things differently. So you are going to have to learn to adjust how you communicate to be seen as ready. Are you going to be more strategic and less tactical, less detailed or something else?
So learning to shift is important.
And what most people, where they resist is, it's like, but, but this is how I've always done things. This is how I'm comfortable.
That's not me, it's black and white.
You're not a black and white person. Regardless of what some demographic checklist may, you know, force you to choose, it's really that inside of us, we are already changing from scenario to scenario. You use the term earlier code switching. Now, whether you're going from Dutch to English or from, you know, chemistry to baseball, you're going to adjust the manner, the demeanor, the style in which you speak.
So the prismatic voice, that ability to shift is because if you think about it in terms of. Have you ever seen one of those little crystals that's hanging from the rear view mirror in somebody's car or from the kitchen window, et cetera, a little sun catcher. And the sunlight hits it, it and little rainbow comes out the other side. You've seen those?
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I have two upstairs.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Beautiful. Okay, so in that same way, and this is the only woo woo that I get. So just, you know, run with the metaphor here, Stuart.
[00:38:43] Speaker B: Oh, all right, everybody brace yourself. Here we go.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: I'm gonna do the Italian. We don't do woo woo. So you are me on the metaphor. But we have just like the sunlight, we have all those colors in us. It's just a matter of what prism are we passing through, what context are we passing through, and thus knowing that we have all those colors in us, which one needs to shine most brightly to allow our message to land as intended.
So right here, I'm in my coaching mode. I'm in my teaching mode. I'm talking about my technical expertise area. I'm talking to a professional audience. We're in the podcast video platform medium. All of those pieces. We're going to say I'm going to call that my purple. This is my style. But I also have a nine year old at home. I don't talk to him like this. I don't use this kind of vocabulary. I don't use this kind of cadence. I'm not going to necessarily be sitting here when I'm talking to him. I'm going to adjust a lot of stuff. I'm going to be a little goofier. The topics that we discuss are going to be very different. My style, my mannerisms are going to shift.
It's still me, but we're going to call that my yellow. And chances are. Are you a sports fan, Stuart?
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: What's your favorite team or sport?
[00:39:56] Speaker B: So many. I mean, I'll watch football. I enjoy baseball in the playoffs. I mean, I enjoy soccer.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: A baseball cap of some sort. What? Whose team emblem is going to be?
[00:40:06] Speaker B: Oh, it's all Boston Red Sox.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Red Sox. Okay. So when the Sox are having an absolutely terrible day and you're at the bar with your friends and you're watching and it's just error after error after whatever, do you have some perhaps choice words that will just spontaneously emanate with your friends that you would not use here on this podcast?
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Absolutely. And even the accent starts to creep in, even though I don't have it. It just. What are you talking about? What is this garbage? Right? It just. It happens. It takes over, even though that's not my native. You know, we moved here when I was 10, but I get it.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So your Persona adapts. So we'll call that your red, but it's not that it's not you or that that's the real you and this is the fake you. Right. My purple is as authentically me as my yellow is. If your podcast voice will call it your blue, as opposed to your Red Sox fan voice, which is your red. It's just recognizing in this context, I'm going to let this color be a little brighter. And tone down that other color because it's contextually appropriate to get me the results. What I'm looking for. That part of me can lead. It's not about being more or less authentic. It's managing to pull from one color versus another color different times. Having that flexibility because you own all of them in the spectrum. That's the power of the prismatic voice.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: What I love about that is it gives you permission to do what you need to do to serve the room that you're in.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: I think there's a Japanese expression that, you know, you are who the room says you are. So if you're CEO and you're in the boardroom, great. But if you're home with your kids, your dad, or whatever it is.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: What I love about the prismatic voice, and I'm wondering how people start to become aware of their different voices, is both you and I work with people who are born in. In, you know, all over the world. And English might be their second, third, fourth language. And so I'm always impressed people with, you know, advanced degrees, medical degrees, incredibly brilliant. However, they may have an internal monologue or a natural style that is extremely quiet or very challenging. When you're in a American or Western European sort of business culture, where there might be more of a cult of personality. Like what a charismatic leader. And that person can command the room. And so there's this delta between this is who I am and then this is what the room needs. How do you get people to start to inch their way from where they are to where they may need to be in their role and what's required of them to lead?
[00:42:46] Speaker A: I love that you brought up the word charisma, because that is a word that scares the pants off of most professionals. It's especially in the tech spaces. They're kind of like. Doesn't that mean televangelist, Tony Robbins, larger than life. Hey, everybody, look at me. I love this spotlight. And I just want to keep talking. Cause I love the sound of my own voice. That seems to be the description of charisma that most people misapply. The way I like to think about it is this. Can you think of one person where if they were given the choice to spend a whole day with anyone in the world, they'd pick you? Can you think of somebody who would pick you?
[00:43:26] Speaker B: I mean, I hope my kids would. I hope so, but which is fine, right?
[00:43:30] Speaker A: And most people will. Can think of at least one person. Maybe it's your best friend, maybe it's your Grandmother, maybe it's, you know, who knows? But there's one person who would want to be with you all day.
Who are you when you are with that person and how do you make them feel?
[00:43:51] Speaker B: It's a brilliant question. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. Cause I'm thinking of some of my best friends that you just.
Can I answer it, please?
So if I really reflect on one person who's very close to me, I think it's. First of all, there's just no filter. It's just genuine care. It's concern, it's checking in, it's being a wonderful listener. It's. I mean, it's so. The way you frame it, Laura, it's just so beautiful. All of a sudden it just looks like a floodgates open and you get it right.
It's brilliant.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: The easy part, Stuart, is that once you've answered those questions and you figured out, okay, with that person, here's how I behave.
That makes. That I think, makes them feel a certain way.
Do you accept them for who they are?
[00:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah, of course.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Are you direct with them? Are you yourself, are you at ease with them? Do you not? Hope so. When you think about all those things that makes them feel good, that's the natural energy that you want to lead with in those other spaces. Again, adjusted perhaps for the context, for the audience, but nevertheless, it's. How do you become that person? Because charismatic can be very quiet, but there's. There's a calm presence, perhaps there's a trust. There's a look on your face that says, I see you. I'm listening to you. Are you nodding as you go? Are you thoughtful in your response? You don't have to be loud. Fast. First, the deciding hammer of sorts. But so the charisma. There's a good book.
It's been out for a little while. Olivia Fox Caban's the Charisma myth.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I've read it.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: Charisma is that combination of competence, presence and warmth. And the notion is that competence is making it clear to somebody that you have the skill to do what they need you to do to help them or to do otherwise. And the warmth is somehow letting them recognize that you're not going to use that power, that skill, in a way that's going to hurt them.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: What I remember from her framework has stuck with me, which is. I think it was angel wings around warmth. That if you imagine the other person is wearing angel wings. I could be getting this wrong. But. But I remember that from the framework that you look at someone as if they are a gift, as if they're a joy.
And what it reminds me of, you know, you can love or hate this person, but Bill Clinton, the word on the street when he was in office was that no one was more charismatic than him. And what I read was that the most defining factor was that when he spoke with you, no matter who else was in the room, you felt like the only person and the most important person. And to me, what does that signal? Interest, genuine curiosity, active listening and accepting you for who you are. And then, of course, you can add in flourishes of compliments and all those things which all of us are prey to. We all. I mean, how many people, if somebody complimented you, was interested in you, wanted to hear from you, you'd be like, yeah, whatever. Don't run that game on me. I think most of us would be like, what a great person.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: The other person who was known for doing that, Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, he was known for making everybody of every age and every role feel like they were the most important person, if not the only person that he was aware of in that moment. It was a gift.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: A gift. And to the camera. I mean, he was the first one who spoke to kids, not as peers, but with respect.
Like, here's a person who will be an adult one day. I want them to hear what an adult speaking to someone who's growing into an adult should hear.
And if you haven't, and this is for everyone listening, Google Mr. Rogers in front of the Senate hearing Committee. I think in 1968, when he. They were cutting funding, and he's in front of them advocating that their budget of $10 million was going to be cut. And I don't want to spoil it, but actually, let me spoil it and then go watch the video.
Not only did they not cut it, they doubled his budget.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: It.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Just watch what he does. From a rhetorical masterclass. I'll put a link in the show notes. It's just amazing.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Oh, I'm gonna look it up myself now. That's great.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: It's. It's really good. So let's talk prismatic boys in terms of someone becoming aware, which I love. And also what I love about your frameworks is it gives someone agency. Even myself, I'm familiar with prisms, but, you know, what do you do with that? And so you can start to become aware that, oh, I'm in my family. Connecting voice. I'm in my.
What does someone do if they go, okay, I really have a goal to be seen as more you know, more of a leader or more. More executive presence. Now, I'm aware that I have this inside of me that I can really kind of shift my prism. What do you recommend someone does to sort of increase their awareness and their ability to execute on their own?
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Prismatic voice number one, don't take it too literally. Don't sit there and go, okay, well, red usually means anger, and yellow is more about, stop. Just, you know, randomly assign colors. And you don't even need to technically assign a label to each of the main colors in the spectrum. That's not the point. So for those of you who like everything to fit into a spreadsheet, let's not be too literal on this, right? It's just a metaphor thinking about how to tap into those colors and how to adjust within the spectrum. The other analogy that I like to use is to recognize that in your brain you have a limitless mixing board, like for a DJ who makes the sound, a sound engineer. Most of us only think about it in terms of a power switch. Now it's on, now it's off. This is me. That's not me. But when you start to look at all the little levers and dials you have, it's not about, okay, well, I need to be more authoritative. Shove everything all the way up. Well, now I need to be a little less intimidating. Shove everything down again. That's all or none. It might be a matter of you've been told that you're a little too gruff, you're a little too blunt, and, you know, it's ruffling some feathers and creating kind of a harsh or toxic or lack of trust kind of work environment. It's not to say that you gotta go to being nicey nicey. That's the other end of the spectrum. But maybe here's a thought. You don't realize that you're really loud and you talk very fast when you're stressed about something. So maybe we just need to dial the volume button back from 8 to 6 and the speed we're going to pull back from a 9 to a 7.8 just a little bit less. And somehow when you take down, not turn way down, but just nudge that volume and that speed down a little bit. It's less intense coming at you, and it's more about talking with you. And then people don't feel like there's this wall of sound hitting them.
It's more of a conversation. And that can help people's anxiety levels come down, help those negative, those resistance hormones reduce and the more receptive ones increase. So it's often little details.
And so trying to understand what are all the different levers on my mixing board that I could adjust one by one, because it's often just the smallest detail that makes a big difference. Maybe you didn't even know that you used four acronyms in that sentence, and they only knew two of them.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: And they're afraid to tell you.
[00:51:27] Speaker B: I love that. I love the metaphor of not switches, but levers or dials. Right. Because. And I don't know if you ever. I love watching music documentaries, and sometimes you get these producers who have like a 96 tracks in front of them and all these. And then I've watched this happen where they're seeing a recording happening, and it's magical, and they put their hands on the controls, and you can't even see movement, but you know they're doing something because they're intentional. And you go, I know they're doing some magic trick here, but it's. It's a game of millimeters. And I try to tell my clients that, guys, we're not in the makeover business. We're in. We're in the 2 millimeter game. 1 millimeter game, you know, because A, it's way more actionable, and B, it. You know, to your point, it might just be. Let's boost. Let's boost the volume here so they can hear you in that concert hall or that town hall.
And then let's dial down the acronyms just so we get a little more clarity. So it's. It's fun. It's almost like a mixing board, Laura.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: Yes, very much so. And I'm so glad you said 2 millimeters, because I talk all the time about the 2 millimeter shift for any golfers who are out there. And when you're standing at the tee and you're aiming for the hole, the way that you grip the club when you make that first drive, that. That big swing, if you just rotate your wrists 2 millimeters at all, which doesn't seem like anything in the moment where that ball lands over the course of 150 yards. Could be 50 yards to the left or right or whichever direction you don't want it to go. So the whole point is that it's little changes that have massive impact down the line. So it can change everything. If you think about even a. Like a safe, a combination safe where you keep your valuables or whatever else it is, if it's not a key lock, a combo lock, you can turn it 99% of the way. But if it's supposed to be 18 and you're only at 17, it's not going to open. You don't have to spin the dial 12 more times. You just got to move it from 17 to 18 and suddenly it pops open.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: I love it because it feels more actionable. And also, if you just look at the law of sort of compounding, I think I'm getting this right, that if you get 1% better each day, you'll be twice as good, I think in 71 days or something like that. You can check my math. But the point is, if you're just committed to micro improvements within a quarter, 90 days, no time, you can be massively better at something if you pick your goal in mind. So I work with clients on saying, let's not boil the ocean, let's pick that one little thing that if you just did that, then it would open things up. And of course, that's sometimes the lead domino. Now that starts going, you go, hey, I've got some momentum here. Let me bring in this other thing. And it moves quickly. I feel like I could talk for three more hours, but I don't want to do that to you or your schedule. I have one more topic that is probably the title of this whole podcast, which is From Brilliant Minds to Influential Voices. And I know that you and I both work with people who are. Are very brilliant geniuses who can look at problems in ways in chemistry and technology, you name it.
However, knowing something and getting others to care about it and act on it are very different. And of course, this underpins this concept of the curse of knowledge that it's. You forget what it's like to not know, right? We all walk around life going, doesn't everyone know how to do this? And you forget that most of the world has never even heard of it. So how do you help people start to at least overcome that? You know, somebody who's technically brilliant but wants to make that into some form of leverage and saying, I need a team to care about this and go build this.
[00:55:05] Speaker A: The funny part about it, Stuart, is that it's the skill of breaking the expert's curse. To do that, you have to do a few things that feel completely counterintuitive to establishing yourself as the authority, who people should listen to and just follow suit. And 99% of it, when you do it, you'll be afraid that it's going to undermine your authority, but the fact is they won't even consciously notice that you did it. And it will move them towards where you want them to go. So things like using analogies or little metaphors along the way. Now I've used probably 12 of them in the course of this conversation. From the mixing board and the prismatic voice to the combo lock, the golfer's grip.
We've used a whole bunch. And chances are nobody was consciously thinking about why is she using metaphors about golf or about DJs? She's not a golfer, she's not a. It didn't go there, but you can envision something. Metaphors and analogies speak to the listener's unconscious, and then the explanation speaks to the conscious. That speaks to the logic part of the brain. The logic part of the brain takes time to process information, carry the one, do the math, make things fit into place.
But if you can give them the metaphor first, as soon as people just get it, they've got a mental picture or an experience that they're reconnecting with that makes a hundred percent sense to them as it is. Then you map on the data the explanation, the pitch to them. And to the extent that it just maps onto that metaphor, that foundational structure that you've already created, you're fitting the peg into a similarly shaped hole that's pre prepared for it. And they then don't have to spend time trying to understand because they already intuitively get it. It just paves the road. There's a metaphor for you. It paves the road for them to be able to understand.
How long did that metaphor take? About 2 and a half seconds. It paves the road for them to be able to understand. If you can employ more of those as you go, it does not make you dumbing it down. It does not make you sound less intellectual or less expert. It helps make your stuff more relatable. And they won't consciously notice that you've done it. They just somehow connect better with you. And they go, oh, okay, that makes sense.
So the best way to make someone else think that you're smart is to make them feel smart by explaining things in a way that is so crystal clear, intuitively receivable, and digestible by their unconscious mind first that they just go, oh, sure, that makes sense. Okay, let's go from there. That's how you get to yes.
Not just by force feeding them data point after data point until they're saturated and go, I just need you to stop.
I'm brain fried. That's not where you win. At best, what they think is, I guess they're smart. But beyond that I have no idea what they're talking about and I'm not going to say.
[00:58:23] Speaker B: Yes, right, absolutely. I feel like an analogy for the curse of knowledge is you, the audience are trying to play Tetris and I, the speaker, just start whipping blocks at you at warp speed and I expect you to make a puzzle. And the second way I say if I, if we make this puzzle together, all of these blocks in the right pace are going to make a gold block which you can redeem. And then you go, okay, here's block one. This is how it fits in. And so a lot of people I, I used this yesterday and it's kind of crude, but I'd say a lot of people who are data experts, they show up and throw off and they expect you audience. So make sense of that. Yeah. And it's like, what should I do?
My brain is on fire with ideas and energy. But I'm going to pause our conversation and just ask that you'll please come back and we'll just dig in more.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: Love to.
[00:59:15] Speaker B: Before I let you go, two questions. The first, did I not ask you about anything that would be helpful? And the second one is where should people go to find out about you and your work?
[00:59:25] Speaker A: I'm going to answer those backwards. The first one, the easiest thing to do is to go to my website, laurasicola.com if you enjoyed this and you want to get my weekly tips and things, there's a newsletter there that people are I would invite everyone to sign up for. And I'm also happy if I can offer a gift to your audience. Stuart, I would love to offer two chapters of my book and they can. I'll give you a link. You can pop that in the, in the show notes right after the Mr. Rogers link. And people are welcome to go and download that for free. I'd be happy to share that. So then back to what can they do? I'm going to recommend strongly that the next time you're on a zoom meeting, teams, webex, whatever system you're using, take your phone separately, turn on the video camera, prop it up against your computer screen, and when you have to talk, hit the record button for one minute, two minutes tops. You don't need to do the whole meeting. You don't need to do your entire presentation. One to two minutes is all you need. Then just stop it, go back later and watch. You don't have to like it. Nobody likes watching themselves on video. Nobody likes the way they sound. Blah, blah, blah, get over it. Pull up your big boy pants. Big girl pants, et cetera. Just watch and see what stands out to you. What did you do effectively? And what immediately jumps out and goes, oof. Okay, I should have said that in about 10 seconds and I babbled for 45 instead. Or I just. I spoke, I mumbled as I was going through this. I said like, or 17 times. Or I was. I never made eye contact with the camera. I was looking all over the place like I was trying to find my cheat sheet. And I don't. What did you see that you didn't expect to see? What did you hear that you didn't expect to hear?
That is a pattern that does not serve you or your audience. Identify those with the video. It's the only way to do it. None of my clients escape the video camera because I can't coach you until you see and hear what I see and hear. Then we can move the needle forward. Give yourself that one experiment, that one little homework task. If you have the courage and you want to make that leap, you will get more value out of those two minutes than you will out of two hours worth of asking someone else for feedback.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Could not agree more. Brilliantly said. And Dr. Laura Sicola, thank you for being on the show and thank you for your wonderful advice and conversation. And I cannot wait to have a part two.
[01:01:52] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Stuart. I look forward to it. This was great.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: Me too. All right. Hey, it's Stuart again. Before you leave, if you love this podcast, subscribe. And also if you go to DNA, you'll find a sign up for our newsletter where we give you actionable and practical advice. And be sure to find us on social media. And don't be shy. You can give us a six star review, but we will settle for five. See you in the next one.
[01:02:28] Speaker A: It.
